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Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

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    #16
    Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

    I would assume the reason the fpt file is not being backed up once it gets to the 2 gb size is a limitation of FAT32 and not Alpha.

    FAT32 only allows file sizes up to 2 gb. If your data resides on an NTFS partition, but you are backing up to a FAT32 partition, the file size CANNOT exceed 2 GB under any circumstances.
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Barry Kucher
    http://www.411tech.org

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

      Chuck,
      The bloating issue for .ddm and .fpt is so repeatable
      I have tried for years to obtain a repeatable way to "bloat" these files during normal development practices as it does happen....(there are known ways to do so but are due to doing things incorrectly). If you truly can reproduce this issue on demand, and are following correct development procedures, I can only assume (hope) that you also have submitted this as a bug or issue....did you hear anything back from Alpha?
      Mike
      __________________________________________
      It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know.
      It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
      Henry David Thoreau
      __________________________________________



      Comment


        #18
        Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

        Originally posted by Hansolo View Post
        Correct me if wrong but in the WAS environment memo feilds are created using xbasic as suggested above. Navigating off the record does nothing to the underlying table.
        As you are using the WAS, I believe you are correct. So navigation should not affect the memo field. One note in defense of Alpha, if you do a Google search on memo field corruption, you will find that the problem is a deficiency in the dbase format (as others have suggested) - not in Alpha. With respect to ddm files inflating, that is a normal function of design & development. Compacting the db solves that issue. The memo field bloating has no relationship to normal ddm file inflation; they are two different animals.
        Peter
        AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

        [email protected]
        https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


        Comment


          #19
          Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

          The problem of the bloated FPT files took all of 2 seconds to search on. Today, one of the two memo fields in the table I use every day corrupted. I store simple text, not a lot of it, just notes about the order placed by a customer.

          Another memo field is attached to the table that also stores text, mostly credit information about the customer.

          I too am very disappointed in v9. I have had a few data corruptions in the nine months I've used it. I've been an A4/A5 user since A4 v2 and have never seen anything like this.

          There won't be a version 10 for me, at least not until these issues are resolved.
          Ed Merritt
          UniversalWorkshop.com

          Listen; there's a hell of a good universe next door: let's go.
          e.e. cummings



          Comment


            #20
            Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

            My experience with Alpha is very limited, but since the data storage is based on the DBF file structure, which I've been using for over 25 years, I may be able to provide some insight into what might be happening.

            My comments below are based on the way that Visual Foxpro handles memo fields. At this point, I don't have enough experience with Alpha to say if it handles it the same way.

            1. If the memo field is part of the general edit process, then every time you save it, a new record (not really a record) is added to the memo file. There are no checks AFAIK to determine if the data changed, the whole memo entry is re-written in one standard size block. I believe it's 512 byte blocks. Consequently, every edit will cause memo file bloating even if nothing is being changed.

            This is one of the reasons that we always provide an additional screen to do the memo editing and remove it from the data entry of the other fields in the table. We only want to do a update to that field when the user has specifically indicated that they want to change the contents.

            2. I've been able to remove the memo file bloat by simply recopying the table that is linked to the memo file. During the course of recopying, the "replaced" data is removed from the FTP file.

            Once recopied, you can delete the original and rename the copied file back to the original.
            John J. Fatte', CPA
            PRO-WARE, LLC
            Omaha, NE 68137

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

              Originally posted by Ed Merritt View Post
              The problem of the bloated FPT files took all of 2 seconds to search on.
              Ed,

              If you search Google (outside of this message board), you will find that memo field bloating & corruption (a dbf field type not limited to Alpha) have long been an issue for *any* software product that uses the dbf file structure. Alpha did not invent this problem, it's simply inherent to the dbf file type.


              Originally posted by jjfcpa View Post
              My comments below are based on the way that Visual Foxpro handles memo fields. ..................
              What you describe is the exact same procedure that others have used in the past. But I don't recall a lot of complaints about regular memo fields on this board for a number of years now. Seems like there were a lot of problems w. memos pre ver. 5. But that was a long time ago.
              Peter
              AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

              [email protected]
              https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


              Comment


                #22
                Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

                1. If the memo field is part of the general edit process, then every time you save it, a new record (not really a record) is added to the memo file. There are no checks AFAIK to determine if the data changed, the whole memo entry is re-written in one standard size block. I believe it's 512 byte blocks. Consequently, every edit will cause memo file bloating even if nothing is being changed.
                This also corresponds I believe with the methodology of Peter Wayne's to prevent memo corruption in having a separate table for memo fields and only calling a memo field up when wanting to edit and locking the user into it until the memo is saved.
                Mike
                __________________________________________
                It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know.
                It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
                Henry David Thoreau
                __________________________________________



                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

                  It is all so much easier to just avoid the memo field altogether. Character fields do the job nicely and you can easily use several character fields to capture as much text as the memo field. It takes a little xbasic to clip a string into a few character fields and then merge them when presenting but much easier than memo field maintenance.

                  I understand the memo field situation may have been inherited from the use of DBF. However, since it is the underlying default database architecture of Alpha5 you would think that the limitation deserves some lip service in the help files and possible warnings to NEW users who spend so much time developing supposed easy no-code apps. LITTLE things like this are not so little and should be explained up front in the documentation and not left to searching forums or Google.

                  In fact, I would venture to say that most new users sucked into Alpha5 based on the advertising don't know or care what DBF is or its limitations. If it says you have the use of a tool called a memo field then it should damn well work or explain the limitations of working with it. Otherwise it wastes valuable time and jeopardizes data.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

                    Hi all,

                    Jumped in late but here is a positive way to mess up your fpt file.

                    I have tried for years to obtain a repeatable way to "bloat" these files during normal development practices as it does happen....(there are known ways to do so but are due to doing things incorrectly). If you truly can reproduce this issue on demand, and are following correct development procedures, I can only assume (hope) that you also have submitted this as a bug or issue....did you hear anything back from Alpha?
                    Assume you have a work directory where you do some programming. copy a dbf file and other support files into the work folder without copying the fpt file(using the one already there). Run the app and the fpt will expand greatly. It has done it every time I tried it.

                    My rule I follow now is: If I copy a dbf and support files from one location to another, I make double sure I copy the fpt file with it.


                    .
                    Dave Mason
                    [email protected]
                    Skype is dave.mason46

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

                      Exactly Dave.
                      there are known ways to do so
                      What you stated is what I referred to. What I took the issue to be is if this has NOT been done---ie.; correct development practices have been followed---and the file(s) still become bloated, then it is something that should be reported. It has happened to me without doing anything apparently incorrect...and I have not been able to reproduce the scenario.
                      Mike
                      __________________________________________
                      It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know.
                      It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
                      Henry David Thoreau
                      __________________________________________



                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

                        Pete:

                        Thanks for your reply. I'm aware of the limitations of the dbf format, and in particular the memo field. It's just that with my previous application I built in v5, I never saw the memo field go corrupt. In v9 I've seen what seemed to be unexplained corruption in the indexes and now the memo field.

                        The application I built in v9 is based on the one I built for my ex-employer in v5, which worked flawlessly day after day for more than two+ years. Each day that app imported and printed shipping orders from text files exported from the main system. The major difference in the v9 app is I am importing a memo field from an ecommerce shopping cart, and now believe that the field just grew exponentially with each import. I've now changed the field to a 255 character field. I just have to hope customers don't decide to write their life story until I have created an Xbasic routine to place any characters in excess of 255 into another field.

                        I'm relieved that the problem I experienced happened now when business is slow. My backup from 06/09 was the last to have an uncorrupted memo field and I was able to recover the data and post it into the new character field. Had this happened in Q4 I'd have been in real trouble.
                        Ed Merritt
                        UniversalWorkshop.com

                        Listen; there's a hell of a good universe next door: let's go.
                        e.e. cummings



                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

                          Originally posted by MikeC View Post
                          Exactly Dave. What you stated is what I referred to. What I took the issue to be is if this has NOT been done---ie.; correct development practices have been followed---and the file(s) still become bloated, then it is something that should be reported. It has happened to me without doing anything apparently incorrect...and I have not been able to reproduce the scenario.
                          Mike, I would venture to say that many users coming to Alpha 5 V9 have no experience with dbf. Much of the new user base for Alpha5 is led to the product through the promise of zero coding to make a web enabled database. I am 100% in agreement with how Alpha5 describes its product and continue to use it as effectively as I can; however, the documentation is very poor and limits my ability to deliver what I believed was possible with Alpha5.

                          With that in mind, you have brought up the point of "following correct development practices". I would like to know what part of the Alpha5 documentation describes these practices with respect to the dbf limitations, report file limitations, and file management limitations (of the published variety). Alpha assumes no prior programming or database experience for one to have developed "correct practices" to avoid the inherent limitations. This makes it Alpha's responsibility to present the limitations accurately and concisely to the user and not make the user discover them in the course of developing a working app. I have even attended webinars where I have tried to ask these questions only to be told that it was not possible to cover presumably because the training in the webinar was strictly set to specific content.

                          I am exceedingly appreciative of the users on this forum who have and continue to help me and others through the rough spots with Alpha5 but the forum is not a replacement for proper documentation especially with respect to limitations that effect data integrity or cost countless hours of reworking the same solution.

                          Chuck

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

                            Originally posted by jjfcpa View Post
                            My experience with Alpha is very limited, but since the data storage is based on the DBF file structure, which I've been using for over 25 years, I may be able to provide some insight into what might be happening.

                            ...
                            My comments below are based on the way that Visual Foxpro handles memo fields. At this point, I don't have enough experience with Alpha to say if it handles it the same way.

                            There are no checks AFAIK to determine if the data changed, the whole memo entry is re-written in one standard size block. I believe it's 512 byte blocks. Consequently, every edit will cause memo file bloating even if nothing is being changed.

                            This is one of the reasons that we always provide an additional screen to do the memo editing and remove it from the data entry of the other fields in the table. We only want to do a update to that field when the user has specifically indicated that they want to change the contents.
                            Hi,

                            This is a total guess but it looks to me like this is done automatically in Alpha desktop anyway, and I'm glad you explained this as I had wondered about this before.

                            You have to specifically click the edit icon to open the memo editor for that field, in order to change the contents of such a field, although you can also start edit mode by clicking into the field itself.

                            It does look to me like these are Alpha's way of making sure memo fields only get updated if the user initialised an edit specifically on that memo field, rather than just by updating a record or tabbing through the fields.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

                              Chuck,
                              what part of the Alpha5 documentation describes these practices
                              I agree that Alpha assumes quite a bit of knowledge regarding database and even programming basics actually (such as what a variable is and how it can be used in programming)....and that the documentation/user manual should be prefaced with the basics.

                              It really makes no difference if the information is "somewhere" within the documentation if a user cannot easily find it---it took the better of 3 months of the initial learning curve for me to create a search method that worked (part of that was learning terminology) and now I have no problem at all finding whatever I need to.

                              Instead when it is present it is scattered amongst everything else and some missing entirely such as what not to do regarding memo fields---much has to be learned from the knowledgable people here on the messageboard.

                              When I said "following correct development practices", it was not necessarily referring to the documentation by Alpha, but more so the knowledge that is gleaned from the gurus here on the messageboard.
                              Mike
                              __________________________________________
                              It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know.
                              It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
                              Henry David Thoreau
                              __________________________________________



                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Bloated .FPT file is not getting backed up anymore

                                Originally posted by MikeC View Post
                                Chuck,
                                I agree that Alpha assumes quite a bit of knowledge regarding database and even programming basics actually (such as what a variable is and how it can be used in programming)....and that the documentation/user manual should be prefaced with the basics.
                                I know the docu is not structured perfectly - and you may well be talking of how the help was structured years ago - but if you can't manage to find the very very basic language tutorials then I really don't know what else to suggest.

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