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Thread: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

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    Member popellis's Avatar
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    Default Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Hi I know this is for announcements. But are there any Demo's of the desktop side of version 10. It seems all I here and see is the web server side.

    Thanks

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    I've had by ear to the ground aubject this also and have not heard a single word in respect to new features on the desktop side. Admittedly there is nothing I'm desperately waiting for. However my guess is that the A5 team would want to include new features, or they would have a weak selling point to the existing desktop developer/user base, for a respective upgrade.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    There was a thread in the last week or so in which Selwyn responded about this---basically that yes there were enhancements/new features and that there would be demos about them (no specific time frame).
    Mike
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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Thanks

    It just seems to me that all the hype is toward web based database. At least that is what is promoted.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    New desktop features our coming. However, V-10 is blurring the line between the two.
    Its like taking the the race car off the track and onto the open road.
    Bob

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    In an e-mail I received today from Alpha-

    Videos showing enhancement in v10 for building Desktop applications will be coming soon

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Fo rthe last few version upgrades Alpha is still moving to Web Based apps and leaving the desktop developers behind. I think this will prove a big mistake in the long run for Alpha. I know many A5 developers that build only desktop apps and have no desire to move to the web anytime soon. I get request every day and most of my clienst dont want a web based app. Sooner or later another company will overtake Alpha for the desktop side of app bulding and they will loose a lot of customers.

    Look at the recent web based PayPal mess that happened when they upgraded their system on the web.They lost data and caused huge problems for many customers. They finally got it fixed after 5 months. They lost business becasue of it. A lot of business.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    This discussion has been hashed several times already on the forum and each time it just shocks me in to what "developers" are saying about web vs. desktop. There really is no such thing - this is a real misnomer. There are 2 development methods that can be used in Alpha. One that is more difficult to integrate "IP based" sections of code and one that is significantly easier. IP based does not equal "Web". You do realize that the network you are developing "desktop" apps for is IP based? I just don't get this "desktop" label. If you have a centralized data storage for one or many people, then you can use both methods of development to create applications. It does not mean that you will need a connection to the internet. Alpha goes the whole way by allowing us to rapidly build "hybrid" apps by allowing us to program using both methods. What more could a developer want? I have purchased apps for my "desktop" that actually run in a browser. Works like any other app. It can connect to the web or not. All the functionality is there.

    So instead of thinking that you are being left behind, you should be praising Alpha for allowing you to continue to create applications the way you currently do and also have the ability to advance your skills and be able to offer more to current and new clients. If Alpha has stated that they are going to have new abilities, you can bet they will. But do realize that this part of the development platform has been honed for many years and is already at the top of the heap. The IP based side of things is very new and requires much more added to bring it up to the same level. In Alpha, we have a development tool for now and the future that will allow us to create any kind of app that our minds can think of in any direction that we care to take it. IP based programming is a method that can be applied to internal apps, web apps and hybrid apps.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    To expand on this last post, it also gives you the ability to use any OS on the client/workstation. If it can display a web page it should work. Mac, Linux, so forth. I am working on setting up a intranet website. The only people that will have access to it are people inside my physical location. One of the cool things, in my opinion, if you make changes and modifications you do not have to worry about the users. No software to install or upgrade on them as the only software the client/workstation will use is their favorite Internet Browser. If a pc crashes, so what. Does it have IE on it? Well if it is Windows, we know it will. Set up the network, if you are using DHCP you don't even have to do that, and bam it works. Years ago I was very sceptical of this concept, but after much thought I have concluded that once again Alpha is smarter than I am! I am anxiously looking forward to general release of V10.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    I hope you are right. I have been developing apps in Alpha since the early 90's and have gone from A4V4 to A5V8. I did not upgrade to V9 simply because there were not enougn enhancements to make it worth while for me to move. V8 workds geat for the desktop applications that I sell. I'm not knocking Alpha as a platform at all. Over the past four years I've made almost $287,000 selling desktop apps. Its a great tool for development. Keep in mind that the web/IT based apps are a great idea but as a desktop developer each client of mine is unique. If one client wants a new feature I can pt it in without making others mad because they don't like the change.

    I have developed several desktop apps over the years and sell them on the web. All of my appsa are sold to users thathave them on a single desktop or laptop and are not connected by network.

    There is still a big world for descktop development out there and I hope Alpha will be around to support it.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Quote Originally Posted by Windstarsoftware View Post
    I have developed several desktop apps over the years and sell them on the web. All of my appsa are sold to users thathave them on a single desktop or laptop and are not connected by network.

    There is still a big world for descktop development out there and I hope Alpha will be around to support it.
    Again, IP based apps are desktop apps. They run on a single machine without a network just fine. I use an excellent program for recording TV shows on my computer called BeyondTV. They use the hybrid approach where you can use a standard coded program (that only runs in Windows) or access many other features by using IP based coding through the browser (runs on anything). I very rarely use the standard coded interface as the IP based one is easier to navigate and flexible enough to let the user make changes to it if they need to.

    To simplify, it's not "desktop" development it is "application" development. And with Alpha you get more than one closed-in method of doing it.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Doug - I understand your argument and it has merit but the one thing you seem to gloss over is there are two distinct sets of tools provided by Alpha. One set for producing desktop applications that can be networked. Another set of tools to produce applications that run in a browser run from a server. When members state that desktop is being left behind they a referring to the tools associated with desktop application design. Even Alpha themselves distinguish between the two sets of tools.
    Yes the two technologies maybe merging over time but there seems to be disproportional attention to the web tools at the moment. Rightly or wrongly this has left many desktop application developers feeling a little in limbo with an underlying feeling that Alpha is winding down this side of their product with fewer and fewer improvements with each new release.
    This may not be the case and totally unjustified but from reading recent threads it is definitely the vibe many are getting. Alphas reluctance to put these concerns to bed is also not a help. Patience is a virtue but most of us lack it (including myself) and Alpha needs to learn to woo its audience (customer base) a little better. It would have been a far better marketing strategy to release a few videos of the desktop improvements around the same time as the codeless ajax ones. This would have drawn the whole user-base in rather than leaving many feeling isolated and ignored. I am sure this wasn't Alphas intention and they were just excited to get the new codeless ajax demos out there for everyone to see but it is the result.

    Hopefully in a few weeks all will be forgiven. Alpha will have released an outstanding product for web and desktop developers and all is well in the world of DB.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Hi Geoff, my concern is that we have yet to see anything. Hopefully Alpha is not scrambling to put something together to appease the concerns we are all making regarding the concentration on the web, and lack of desktop.

    A picture is worth a thousand words! Why have we not see even one?

    Steven McLean
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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    The Big question is can Alpha live off of Web development only. AS they move more torwads the wen a d away desktop most desktop developers will not follow. That means soon only web developers will be buying the newer Alpha 5 software and only they will be upgradingto newer versions. I know several who upgraded to V9 and felt it did not really give them much on the desktop side. It seems to me that the web side will be a small market compaired to the desktop market.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    WEB development is new new Buzzz, everything you read is "Cloud" this "Cloud" that..... I think Alpha is trying to capital on the hype. IMHO mainstream database will remain on the desktop. I our industry (Legal) having data on a "Server" somewhere in "NET" land is something that will not happen for the foreseeable future. There are privacy and confidentially issues that don't allow it.

    I agree that if Alpha concentrates on the WEB, most desktop developers will not follow.

    Currently it seems things are progressing similar to FoxPro and Microsoft. Foxpro (2.0 days) was a great and fast product with a strong and small following. Microsoft bought them for their indexing technology (Rushmore). 2.5/2.6 was released shortly after and 2.6 was one of their better releases. Past that the releases were half heated attempts with a lack of commitment to the product which has faded away and no longer exists...


    Steve

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Foxpro still exists - it went to Version 9. MS won't release any more versions but will 'support' it till 2015. It's now in a zombie state. The owner won't breathe any more life into it but it's too strong to die.

    Alpha might want to do some quick damage control before desktop developers decide that v10 is a skipable upgrade.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    I our industry (Legal) having data on a "Server" somewhere in "NET" land is something that will not happen for the foreseeable future. There are privacy and confidentially issues that don't allow it.
    Same issues in the Automotive world. Red Flag and Privacy is making it very difficult to go on a web based system with Dealers. Car Dealers are very scared of their customer base being compromised someway. Most want their server off any internet connection and with good reason. We have done some tunneling for a few where they have multiple stores and one server. It seems one way to keep all data secured(as best we can) with multiple access. We also have encrypted sensitive data just in case.


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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Performance is also another big issue. Every system that have looked at recently including IP based is slower than desktop. when I ask users about the program they are using I hear nothing but complaints. I was in the bank the other day when my teller skipped a step and had to reboot and re log on to the server and start the transaction over. She was very unhappy as was I the customer. It took 9 minutes to get started again. I know there are need for the web development side but at this time there are more concerns over security and for performance. As I said in an earlier post companies like PayPal have recently moved to a new web based system as an upgrade to their existing system and had a big problem that affected thousands of customers. I get ask by almost every customer about where my application resides. They are all scared or concerned about data safety.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Doug,

    I agree with you completely. People keep calling it web applications but it is much more that that. "Browser" based applications offer many things that have nothing to do with the web. I agree that Browser based applications are overkill for a single user desktop application. But for a 5, 10, 20, or more user application that is being sold all over the country so you will not be at he customer site, I think browser applications has many advantages. Less network traffic, you as the developer is only maintaining your software on one server and it is the customer's responsibility to keep his network and PCs running as there is no software of yours on them. As long as the PC has a working browser that is all you are concerned about. The customer can hire a local network guy to configure their system and take care of hooking up the PC's and getting printers working.

    I see no differences in security issues between a multi user browser based application and a multi user desktop application. In both cases you will have the databases on one machine. The PC's in both cases have to communicate with that one machine and both send data over the network to the PC requesting it (just in different forms) With a simple firewall setup on your internet to block outside access to the application server then I do not see and difference with security between the desktop and browser based. If you make you browser based application available to the internet the that is a different story.

    My company currently sells a character based Unix type application for multi users (64 users is our current largest customer) and we have been looking at alpha for our replacement. I can not tell you how many hours we spend working on customers' PC's trying to install terminal software, printer server software, etc. which is one reason I am looking so hard at a browser based application where we are only responsible for the server and it's software. Browser access, windows printers, emailing, faxing would become the responsibility of the customer and their local network guy.
    Jeff Ryder

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Quote Originally Posted by gmeredith17 View Post
    Doug - I understand your argument and it has merit but the one thing you seem to gloss over is there are two distinct sets of tools provided by Alpha.
    Thanks for the comments Geoff and believe me, I'm not trying to argue with anybody. And I actually don't think that I am missing the point of the discussion and understand fully what is being said. My only point was that the new method of creating an application does not have ANYTHING to do with the web and everything to do with a new method of programming - one that can be easily used on the internet if one should so desire. Some of the specialized tools used with this form of development require a connection to the web but so does the classic programming method so does that mean that this is a bad thing? Unfortunately I don't think that my message is sticking with some of those that are concerned about the lack of "desktop" features as the next 3 people who responded after you had absolutely no idea of this concept and continue on their misdirected thinking that IP based programming has only to do with the web!?! For example:
    "regarding the concentration on the web"
    "The Big question is can Alpha live off of Web development only."

    Anyways, I was just hoping that I might be able help to enlighten those that seem to think that what has been added is just for the "web". And I believe that most people have this misunderstanding as they don't really understand what IP based programming is.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmeredith17 View Post
    When members state that desktop is being left behind they a referring to the tools associated with desktop application design.
    I realize that this is where the frustration comes from. I too have a few wishes for the classic system. However, with every version my number of wishes diminishes as Alpha has matured. But despite what these people think of as a fad, IP based programming is HUGE, it just may not be in their current circle of knowledge. And combining databases with a simple to use IP based development system is something the largest companies in DB have been attempting for years including Microsoft and Oracle. Now include the awesome tools that Alpha has included in their classic development method and we can now create hybrid apps that take many, many times longer to do in any other language.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmeredith17 View Post
    Rightly or wrongly this has left many desktop application developers feeling a little in limbo with an underlying feeling that Alpha is winding down this side of their product with fewer and fewer improvements with each new release.
    This is why I was hoping to "show them the light" so to say. The classic version has been honed for many years and has more tools and functions than any of us can possibly learn (except maybe Stan ;)). The IP based side of things, however, is very new and so the development in this area is going to be much more noticeable.

    Oh well.... I am excited about v10 just the same and funny enough all of my programming to date has only been using the classic tools. I just appreciate that my development platform is ready for the future when I am. And I already have plans for some of those "web" tools on my non-internet connected network. It will be a hybrid system using both methods of development. And even if I do connect it to the 'net doen't mean that my security has been compromised as it will only run on the web if I allow it.

    As a final comment to all, in your hurried programming life, take some time to try to understand IP based programming and how and WHERE it works. You may be surprised to find out that the application that you are building today for your desktop just might be developed faster and better using the new IP based "desktop" tools now to be included in Alpha. Just take a look at the comments above from Alan Lee and Jeff Ryder and you will see others who are already planning on implementing IP based applications in a network environment.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Hi Doug, I realize that you can develop a WEB / "Browser" app for LAN use alone, as well as WEB use or Hybrid. But for a LAN application possibly with VPN or RWW access as well, the desktop product is still the best solution. With a "Browser" App integration with additional programs is problematic.

    In Many industries, Legal in particular WEB / Browser have a perceived security risk. Founded or unfounded, it exists.

    There is much hype around "SAAS" and "Cloud" computing many believe it is a fad and be the next DOT COM bust.

    To many is seems Alpha has possibly devoted all their attention to this road. WEB / Browser based applications have a place but are not the only answer.

    Steve
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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Quote Originally Posted by jaryder View Post
    Doug,

    I agree with you completely. People keep calling it web applications but it is much more that that. "Browser" based applications offer many things that have nothing to do with the web. I agree that Browser based applications are overkill for a single user desktop application. But for a 5, 10, 20, or more user application that is being sold all over the country so you will not be at he customer site, I think browser applications has many advantages. Less network traffic, you as the developer is only maintaining your software on one server and it is the customer's responsibility to keep his network and PCs running as there is no software of yours on them. As long as the PC has a working browser that is all you are concerned about. The customer can hire a local network guy to configure their system and take care of hooking up the PC's and getting printers working.

    I see no differences in security issues between a multi user browser based application and a multi user desktop application. In both cases you will have the databases on one machine. The PC's in both cases have to communicate with that one machine and both send data over the network to the PC requesting it (just in different forms) With a simple firewall setup on your internet to block outside access to the application server then I do not see and difference with security between the desktop and browser based. If you make you browser based application available to the internet the that is a different story.

    My company currently sells a character based Unix type application for multi users (64 users is our current largest customer) and we have been looking at alpha for our replacement. I can not tell you how many hours we spend working on customers' PC's trying to install terminal software, printer server software, etc. which is one reason I am looking so hard at a browser based application where we are only responsible for the server and it's software. Browser access, windows printers, emailing, faxing would become the responsibility of the customer and their local network guy.
    Jeff you are correct.

    From a programming standpoint there are some things that are more difficult on a web app vs the desktop but with the features in V10 (we are beta users)that difference will be much less. Having to update the server only is a big thing for support. A lot of customers like having the option to work from home or have there staff work from home, etc.

    We have customers that are on PICK or Unix boxes and we use Alpha to give them browser based reporting etc.....more cost effective then the desktop for them too.

    Desktop will still have its place but the "Intranet" is were things are going. Gives more options to the customer.

    Nicholas
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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Page View Post
    ... I'm not trying to argue with anybody. ...the next 3 people who responded after you had absolutely no idea of this concept and continue on their misdirected thinking that IP based programming has only to do with the web!?!....

    Anyways, I was just hoping that I might be able help to enlighten those that seem to think that what has been added is just for the "web". And I believe that most people have this misunderstanding as they don't really understand what IP based programming is.

    ....But despite what these people think of as a fad, IP based programming is HUGE, it just may not be in their current circle of knowledge. ....

    This is why I was hoping to "show them the light" so to say.

    Oh well.... I am excited about v10 just the same and funny enough all of my programming to date has only been using the classic tools....
    [Emphasis added in the above]

    Of course a "web based" application does not need to be run on the web at all and can easily be a private lan based app. But that is now and probably always will be a very different beast (in lots of important ways) from what you seem to be calling "classic" A5 desktop application. Many of the tools used for each are very different even though some are identical. And although a lan only based application (whether browser based or not) has its own security issues, they generally pale in comparison to the security issues you have once you move an application to the web. Bottom line is that all of us "ignorant" people have plenty of good reasons to be concerned about what is happening with desktop enhancements to Alpha Five.
    Last edited by Raymond Lyons; 07-28-2009 at 02:26 PM. Reason: Edited to remove unnecessary comment.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    From a purely business standpoint I am sure that Alpha is looking at what will bring in the most "NEW" customers and do their best to keep existing customers. I think that they are thinking that with this new "no programming required" AJAX browser/web database development interface that they are hoping to get hundreds or thousands of new customers to buy their product. The desktop environment is already a good product and adding bells and whistles is good but I do not think it will bring in the same number of new customers that they are hoping for with the AJAX stuff. I am not saying at all that they should stop working on the desktop but at the same time they need to concentrate on where they think the new customers will come from but also not forget their current customer base. For a small company juggling between current and new customers is never easy.
    Jeff Ryder

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    A series of new video's are available showing the new features of the re-written debugger.

    http://msgboard.alphasoftware.com/al...ad.php?t=80825
    Jeff Ryder

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    For those that need some cheese to go with your whine.

    The Desktop stuff is starting to be coming now!!!!!!!!!!! :p

    See the videos in link above.
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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Quote Originally Posted by jaryder View Post
    A series of new video's are available showing the new features of the re-written debugger.

    http://msgboard.alphasoftware.com/al...ad.php?t=80825
    Yaaawwnnn... I'm on the forums every day and I don't remember anybody clamoring for a conditional breakpoints in the debugger.

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    JP,
    A post in a recent thread (within the last month) actually did ask for this or similar....but you're right. Clamoring would not be the adjective used as it was the first time I have seen the request!! :)

    But let's see what else is in the works for desktop --hopefully much more.
    Mike
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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    Quote Originally Posted by Windstarsoftware View Post
    Fo rthe last few version upgrades Alpha is still moving to Web Based apps and leaving the desktop developers behind.
    Sorry but that's just not true. V9 was HEAVILY geared towards desktop improvements - after all you could use updateable SQL data sources for the web for some time but Active Link tables were introduced in v9 mainly for desktop usage (and indeed were until relatively recently only possible to use there and not in web grids!), as were most of the new additions in features (at least those that don't required heavy programming in Xbasic and Javascript).

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    Default Re: Is there any v10 desktop demo's

    From this am's release notes:

    Using Grid Components in Desktop Applications - The Grid Component is an extremely feature rich control, with many features that are not possible in Alpha Five desktop applications (or at a minimum, would require extensive Xbasic and Xdialog skills to duplicate). Now, you can use Grid Components in your Desktop applications. You can embed Grid Components in Xdialogs using Action Scripting. When a Grid is embedded into an Xdialog is works without requiring the Application Server to be running.

    The implications of this new feature are profound. If you are building Desktop applications, and you use Grid Components for your data entry tasks, then all of the work that you do for your Desktop applications can be used as-is should you want to port your application to the Web at some future point in time.

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