How about a release?

[NicholasWieland]

Re: How about a release?

Hello. I wanted to thank Nick for providing the link and writing a very nice article on why AlphaFive. Good stuff.

I feel compelled to add "a few" comments to this discussion. :)

Lou Thanks NO Prob.

Richard is right everyone learns at there own pace, way etc.....

The videos coming out for 10 have been good both desktop and web!

I found Dr Waynes Book very helpful as he does discuss -> etc. among many other things.

Also when you find something you need all the time like file types Book mark it here is the link.

I find myself using this a lot in the beginning, etc.....

[MRichard]

Re: How about a release?

This "Wiki" idea is not gonna do it.

It does not replace a well written, comprehensive, concise, authorative, up to date manual, that takes me systematically through the product A-Z's.

The absence of proper documentation works 100% against your marketing efforts and completely sabotages your ability to attract new users.

You're shooting yourself in the foot.

Nonsense. Only a small group of Alpha users is interested in a manual that goes byond what is already here until version 9.
RAD Developers do not expect to need thick written manuals, they expect a product that gives them hands-on working power in an instinctive, semi-automatic manner that speeds up the production process. We do not need a library that spells it al out.
Alpha is only a small company. If we need to choose between a fast working intuitive product or a product with less features but an extensive written manual byond the scope of the help documents that already exist for version 9, I will vote for the first option at all times. If a problem outside the scope has been detected, Alpha will be the first to investigate and share the options in this forum. No need to spell everything out to the very last letter. A waste of energy!

[Steve Wood]

Re: How about a release?

Personally I have a 100+ page Word document where I keep everything I learn. That way I can spellout exactly what I need in order to reproduce it in another application. I suggested to Richard that he NOT abandon the standard Help in favor of this Wiki and instead put some effort in to enhancing it. So many functions and concepts cannot be found in the Index either because:

a) they just don't show up (try finding help on the function named FUNCTION() in the Index, you can't and you have to find it in Search by some reference to that function).
b) hundreds of things show up in the Index and you cannot find your particular item among the hundred.

Also I suggested recompiling the Help using a modern tool. For instance, I need a "Favorites" list because most of the time I am trying to re-find something I used last week.

[jaryder]

Re: How about a release?

And let me point out. How many other companies will you find the owners posting long detailed messages on a Sat. morning. This is not the first time and my guess not the last time that we will hear from either of the brothers on a weekend or late night. They are truly committed to the success of their product.:D

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: How about a release?

Nonsense. Only a small group of Alpha users is interested in a manual that goes byond what is already here until version 9.

You paint with a broad brush, brother. How do you know only a "small group" wants "more" documentation?

RAD Developers do not expect to need thick written manuals,

The current "manual" is 8600+ pages (or so I'm told). What would you like them to do - pare it down to 50 pages?

Good up to date docs are very important for (probably) most of us (but I haven't taken a poll).

[Steve Wood]

Re: How about a release?

I consider myself among the top Alpha developers (Web at least)and the only reason I don't need better documentation is because I do this every single day and have been rigorous over the years to make my own set of resources, and I am tenacious.

If I was just starting out or only did this part time, in addition to ASP, VB or something, I'd have a heck of a time figuring out how to make professional use of Alpha. I build apps for paying clients, and that means I cannot waste time AND the results have to be functional, efficient and secure. From the docs and the videos you can figure out how to use the functions, make filters, print reports, etc. and make pretty and functional Grids. But an application is a whole lot more than this and I do most things complete different than as explained in any Alpha resource.

It took me years to develop my methodology, how I approach development using Alpha Five, and how to streamline development of a complex application. Most of the cries for documentation are not really the reference kinds -- functions, etc. it's How do I do this, and what is the best method? There is not a single uptodate document or third party book that covers this in any detail (course I haven't looked for several years, let me know if there are now).

-- The list below grew longer than I expected. My point is that proper documentation should at least be enough to get a busy professional developer to 2nd base. The existing docs and videos get them to first base, buying the product and maybe building some initial app.

Examples of what I've had to figure out:

How do you allow a SystemAdmin to create and manage CompanyAdmins, and then let those CompanyAdmins create and manage StaffAdmins, and those StaffMembers to create and manage Users each with different permissions -- all online? And then ensure every entity is kept separate, everyone viewing only their own data. (I just did this, so its fresh in my mind).

How do you create an online registration system whereby only pre-authorized individuals can register and when they register, they are linked to their existing account, and you never screw up and link someone to someone else's account - (a classic example of this is when you register with your Long Distance carrier to view your existing account).

How do you create a double opt-in registration system?

How do you create a web-based system that, once live, does NOT require any programming access to Alpha Five in order for the clients to maintain everything - Users, Content, Security, etc.

How do you link up to a payment gateway, send XML or POST, parse the reply, update transaction logs, show the user they were authorized or rejected, create download history and re-download options, send out the appropriate email receipt, include opt-out, etc.

And make sure you never create any URL with sensitive data like session variables, or simple ID's like "ID=10001" (which I see developers doing all the time.) Or worse, using Alpha nifty syntax for building Filters in the URL. Sounds great, but is a security risk if used in the wrong place.

And then there is CSS, SQL, security, 3rd party tools integration -- put all that together and it is a massive job to kick out a decent product. Documentation can't solve all the problems I described above, methodology is largely the Developers job. But the docs should not get in the way as they do now by being so out of date and difficult to use.

[Richard Rabins]

Re: How about a release?

Steve I thank you for your previous post

I do have to respectfully disagree with the following statement which you made in your post

If I was just starting out or only did this part time, in addition to ASP, VB or something, I'd have a heck of a time figuring out how to make professional use of Alpha.

We sell thousands of copies of Alpha Five every month and the vast majority of these folks are able to make professional use of the product without having a heck of a time

We sell Alpha Five with a money back guarantee and the number of folks who return the product is significantly less than 1/10th of 1 %

[MikeC]

Re: How about a release?

Richard (all),
The documentation and most, if not all, examples used to "guide" new Alpha users are primarily for those users who have at least some experience with databases and programming. Even AlphaSports which is supposedly a useful tool for newcomers is NOT useful for someone who has never programmed or developed a database before.

I remember trying to learn from AlphaSports and gave up after a few days once I had become totally confused by it. Alpha Made Easy by Susan Bush was more helpful but still made way too many assumptions on the user's knowledge.

What prevented me from giving up was this messageboard and the solutions given here...once I learned how to search the board and the help files I gained abilities in leaps and bounds (at least I feel I did!).

My point ? I think there should be a book for Alpha that that teaches at the "Dummy" level (or a small group tutoring session maybe I have at times considered doing) for absolute beginners who need the basics before proceeding into the advanced beginner/intermediate books/tutorials/discussions. I have seen so many users in this messageboard that need this and have noticed many of these needful folk are no longer present ---I can only assume they gave up.

So to shorten this to a one liner I would say that when Steve said,

I'd have a heck of a time figuring out how to make professional use of Alpha.

I am in complete agreement--could even change the "professional" to "any" and it still would be true.

[RossAllen]

Re: How about a release?

The Wiki is real and will be made public with the release of v10

The plan is to have v10 information incorporated in the wiki

The other benefit of the Wiki is that it is a centralized easy to search mechanism for quality content /videos/ white papers /tutorials to be hosted.

The way this will work is that if any member of the Alpha Community wants to post content to the Wiki - they can, after it has gone through an edit/approval step.

If you need a MediaWiki Skin with the look-n-feel of vBulletin go here: http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?p=1838022

[Richard Rabins]

Re: How about a release?

Richard (all),
The documentation and most, if not all, examples used to "guide" new Alpha users are primarily for those users who have at least some experience with databases and programming. Even AlphaSports which is supposedly a useful tool for newcomers is NOT useful for someone who has never programmed or developed a database before.

I remember trying to learn from AlphaSports and gave up after a few days once I had become totally confused by it. Alpha Made Easy by Susan Bush was more helpful but still made way too many assumptions on the user's knowledge.

What prevented me from giving up was this messageboard and the solutions given here...once I learned how to search the board and the help files I gained abilities in leaps and bounds (at least I feel I did!).

My point ? I think there should be a book for Alpha that that teaches at the "Dummy" level (or a small group tutoring session maybe I have at times considered doing) for absolute beginners who need the basics before proceeding into the advanced beginner/intermediate books/tutorials/discussions. I have seen so many users in this messageboard that need this and have noticed many of these needful folk are no longer present ---I can only assume they gave up.

So to shorten this to a one liner I would say that when Steve said,I am in complete agreement--could even change the "professional" to "any" and it still would be true.

Mike

if you would like to author a "dummy" book, we would seriously consider publishing it.

For those of you reading this post - you may be noticing that on the one hand a dummy book is being suggested and on the other hand a guide for professional developers who are making the switch from visual studio.net, ruby, php etc is also being suggested

I received the following from an Alpha Customer/Developer in Australia this morning (Peter Conway)- that I thought I would share because of its relevance

"I was thinking about this when I went to the supermarket with my wife today, I don�t often go, and I could not believe how many people were at the checkouts and in the isles with very different contents in their trolleys some have food in-mind, some household goods or both.




I thought, why are supermarkets so popular?, I thought the answer was price, well today I found it wasn�t all that matters � I thought if it�s just price why don�t the trolleys overflow with just specials and home brand items.




A supermarket is many things to many people, because not only does it deliver an agreeable price, it delivers a variety of options or possibilities in an attempt to suit the needs for each customer that walks in the door. What they also do well is organize the options so they can easily make a specific choice from a range of items within a category to address their need.




Alpha Five is like that supermarket; people who come to Alpha do so for a variety of reasons. All have variety of data in mind when they enquire, but Alpha Five offers mutually exclusive choice;




A stand alone desktop

A network desktop environment

An intuitive genie and template development environment on the desktop

A complex programming application environment on the desktop

An intuitive Web application genie or template development

A complex Web programming application

A Web Server

Or all of above options




The customers can be developers or end-users or organizations with developers servicing their own user base, other wanting to transition to V10 from other technologies.




While all of these choices are interlinked and share functionality and processes, each one can deliver an acceptable outcome for the customer in their own right."

[GregoryCW]

Re: How about a release?

Actually....while still waiting my beta...i had lots of time to search alternatives...and there actually are lots... so its not that monumental...

To get the beta, send Richard an email.

Like you, I'm new to this product and more to the point, I've been out of programming for a number of years. So, based on your comment, I did look around. I spent a couple of hours browsing and reading through web sites and pdf's. I looked at Access, Delphi, Omnis and Yessoftware. Someone mentioned they were moving from DataEase. I looked at it and I won't be spending any time with it. So, if you (or anyone on this list) have something that's 'hot' then I'd like to know what it is. I am not qualified to defend Alpha BUT from what I found, Alpha still stands head and shoulders above the competition.

In regards to better training & documentation - I agree. There are some number of companies that offer that and Alpha sells some of it through their web store. Most of it qualifies as entry level. I do think there is a business for better training for some one or some company. I would consider a boot camp program to get a quick start.

I am having a hard time getting my mind around it. I'm still waiting for my 'ah hah' moment. What I can say, is the product is stronger with each release. It's mind boggling what they have accomplished.

My conclusion, there is no replacing hard work. As strong as Alpha is, it takes time to come up to speed. For some (like me), that is taking longer than I would like.

Regards,
Greg Wood

[jpeltola]

Re: How about a release?

Greg,

There are competitors...or should i say other options,as we all know. But they all need more coding or they are very limited...The reason why i searched alternatives was because i had to start couple of projects,and wasnt sure how long it would take until v10 would be ready. But now, after i got my beta, i very fast noticed how easy it is to create very professional looking and userfriendly applications with it. But sure...it is possible to get the same results with other products too. But my choice defn is/was v10..

[Richard Rabins]

Re: How about a release?

Jukka

We are looking for representatives in various parts of the world. I understand that you are based in Finland. Let me know at [email protected] if this may be of interest for you in Finland.

Thanks

[forskare]

Re: How about a release?

We sell thousands of copies of Alpha Five every month and the vast majority of these folks are able to make professional use of the product without having a heck of a time

We sell Alpha Five with a money back guarantee and the number of folks who return the product is significantly less than 1/10th of 1 %

With all due respect, it is an assumption to say this because unless there is a followup survey to those purchasers, say 90 to 120 days after purchase, one really doesn't know what they have accomplished with A5.

It's also an assumption to believe those who did not return A5 are still using the program. Again, there should be an easy email followup to these folks.

It makes no difference if a person is new to A5 or new to the Application Server, this is what I encountered when trying to create a New Web Project Profile following the instructions. This is what I did this morning

Creating a New Web Project Profile
If you were going to support two websites for local (LAN) and remote (WAN) users, you could create two more profiles named "LAN" and "WAN" or "Local" and "Remote". Any unique name is acceptable for a new profile. (You can see an example of a server profile at Publishing a Page to a Server.)
1. Click Profiles (or Web > Project Settings... ) to display the Web Project Properties dialog box.
2. Select "Local Webroot" in the Profile list.
3. Select "<New Profile>" in the Profile list.
4. In the General section of the properties list replace "<New Profile>" with "AlphaSports". [Picture]
5. Application variables are variables that are available to every page you create. Click in the General > Application Variables field to display the Define Application Variables for Web Projects dialog box. Enter Author = "your_name" and click OK. [Picture]
6. Click in the General > Aliases field to display the Define Path and Connection Aliases for Web Projects dialog box. These are the types of aliases you will need to create. Note that the alias names and paths used below are for illustration. The values that you use for the alias names can be different. For example, you could replace all instances of [PathAlias.ADB_Path] with [MyDatabasePath] without a problem.

1. I got as far as #2.
2. Number 3 does not exist although there is a Add New Profile button. However, that appears to start the process all over again.
3. The links to the pictures do not work.
4. One is left with spending a bunch of time trying to figure it out through a lot of trial and error or, if you are like me and don't have the time, give it up.

Maybe it is just me, but instructions are meant to be followed to the "T" and not leave anything for the reader to assume. Once assumptions begin.........

All this said, Selwyn, Richard and their crew have worked extremely hard to get where they are today. My comments are meant to be constructive. Even if A5 was only a mediocure product, I would still stick with it just because of their dedication and attention to this message board. I have no doubt they will get the documentation squared away so nearly everyone will be happy, which is a formidable task, to say the least.

kenn

[RossAllen]

Re: How about a release?

If I was just starting out or only did this part time, in addition to ASP, VB or something, I'd have a heck of a time figuring out how to make professional use of Alpha

Can you recommend a program other then Alpha Five that a beginner could take to market faster? I haven't found one.

How do you allow a SystemAdmin to create and manage CompanyAdmins, and then let those CompanyAdmins create and manage StaffAdmins, and those StaffMembers to create and manage Users each with different permissions -- all online? And then ensure every entity is kept separate, everyone viewing only their own data. (I just did this, so its fresh in my mind).

Very good point. Not knowing how to create a web application in Alpha Five where customers can log in online and only see their records (i.e: by customer id), and assign users who in turn only see their records, has stopped me from going any further with a web application.