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>= Nano Trivia <= , or is it?

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    #46
    Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

    Originally posted by Steve Andrews View Post
    Another way to illustrat Al's logic is as follows:

    Suppose: x = 9.999...

    Then:
    10x = 99.999...
    (10x - x) = (99.999... - 9.999...)
    9x = 90
    x = 10

    That's a fully legitimate proof.

    Steve
    eloquently stated... much clearer than I babbled...

    I wish I had invented that proof.. But at least I can copy it...... Ain't Math fun???!!!
    Al Buchholz
    Bookwood Systems, LTD
    Weekly QReportBuilder Webinars Thursday 1 pm CST

    Occam's Razor - KISS
    Normalize till it hurts - De-normalize till it works.
    Advice offered and questions asked in the spirit of learning how to fish is better than someone giving you a fish.
    When we triage a problem it is much easier to read sample systems than to read a mind.
    "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler."
    Albert Einstein

    http://www.iadn.com/images/media/iadn_member.png

    Comment


      #47
      Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

      Al,

      OK, I see how you were doing this.
      10x=99.9999...
      divide by 10 to get
      x=9.9999...
      then subtract 10x-x = 99.9999... - 9.9999...
      to get
      9x=90
      so
      x=10

      Nice, but you lost a digit by doing the division( 99.9999... is infinity long and 9.9999... is only infinity-1 long). It should be accounted for in the subtraction. After all, it's still hanging on to the end of that 99.9999...

      10x=99.9999...
      divide
      x=9.9999...
      subtract
      9x=90.000...0009
      Oh no, now
      x>10

      Maybe the division added a decimal place ( 99.9999... is infinity long and 9.9999... is infinity+1 long). Still need to account for it.
      9x=90 - 0.000...0009
      so
      x<10

      I guess it depends on how long infinity is.

      Should I comment on the 100% problem again or leave it?

      Comment


        #48
        Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

        This debate will never end. It goes to show that no one can possibly comprehend zero nor infinity.
        The idea that 9.9999....=10 is based on the "logic" that as you add more decimals the distance between 9.9999... and 10 gets smaller and smaller and since you could add an infinite number of decimals "eventually" the distance becomes zero and if there is no distance between the 2 then they are equal.
        Really?
        Not really. Mathematicians have come to accept that, but it goes to show that no human mind can comprehend zero much less infinity.
        Does the distance ever get to zero?
        It defies the First law of Thermokinetics..Here math will conflict with physics when they shouldn't.

        But mathematician as a practical matter resolved to accept this when they should have dropped it as unresolved and a "cannot be resolved" matter.
        When you come to the gates of Zero and Infinity ... walk, just walk. You simply cannot apply any logic to either, because logic is finite and cannot be applied to infinite matters. Just say: this cannot be resolved, period. And walk.

        Comment


          #49
          Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

          Originally posted by aRob View Post
          Nice, but you lost a digit by doing the division( 99.9999... is infinity long and 9.9999... is only infinity-1 long). It should be accounted for in the subtraction. After all, it's still hanging on to the end of that 99.9999...

          10x=99.9999...
          divide
          x=9.9999...
          subtract
          9x=90.000...0009
          Oh no, now
          x>10

          Maybe the division added a decimal place ( 99.9999... is infinity long and 9.9999... is infinity+1 long). Still need to account for it.
          9x=90 - 0.000...0009
          so
          x<10

          I guess it depends on how long infinity is.

          Should I comment on the 100% problem again or leave it?
          No nothing is left hanging..... Perhaps the computer representation of a finite number of digits is confusing the subtraction for you.

          Your choice on the 100% of a given digit. But at this point it's probably best to find another authoritative source for the solution explanation... I didn't see it on the Ask Dr. Math site, but I didn't look too hard either...

          And G's right about some people don't understand the issues, but that doesn't mean that no one understands it..
          Al Buchholz
          Bookwood Systems, LTD
          Weekly QReportBuilder Webinars Thursday 1 pm CST

          Occam's Razor - KISS
          Normalize till it hurts - De-normalize till it works.
          Advice offered and questions asked in the spirit of learning how to fish is better than someone giving you a fish.
          When we triage a problem it is much easier to read sample systems than to read a mind.
          "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler."
          Albert Einstein

          http://www.iadn.com/images/media/iadn_member.png

          Comment


            #50
            Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

            This thread that started out with a simple concept turns out to be a debate about infinity.

            So as the issue does not get lost in the ever widening debate, I still maintain that:

            x>"L"
            is a lot better than:
            x>="M"

            and:
            x>{01/01/2009}
            is a lot better than:
            x>={01/02/2009}

            and as to numeric, and hopefully by now everyone came to realize that you cannot store "Infinity" in a field (or a variable) and that you are limited to a certain number of decimals, then all you have to do, assuming that the values you are dealing with are in decimals, is to step back one decimal. For all practical purposes, the majority of all numeric fields use 2 decimals, if any. In few cases you use more. If you use 16 decimals, and if you really rely on the accuracy of the 16th decimals, you have more trouble beyond the scope of this thread.

            Comment


              #51
              Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

              But why bother worrying about how many decimals when you can just use '>='.

              Interesting thought though G but like your thread title states its just trivia and personally I'd advocate business as usual for most scenarios and continue using the '>=' method.

              Oh and as far as some of the math go it's a little worrying. I am far from a mathematician but....

              (I can't bring myself to use X as it can get confusing with the multiplication symbol)

              10Y=99.999

              (as G said lets leave infinity alone and give it a fixed number of decimals for calculation purposes)

              For 10Y to equal 99.999, Y must equal 9.9999.

              Therefore

              10x9.9999=99.999

              Does everyone agree?

              Now,

              10Y-Y=99.999-9.9999

              and you get

              10Y-Y=89.9991 not 90.

              Please also note 10Y doesn't equal 89.9991 or even 90. You all seem to be losing that -Y in your equations or -X in you examples. Where did it go?

              Like I said maths isn't really my thing and I welcome any corrections to my attempt at making sense of some of these proofs.

              Oh and finally I haven't read all the posts in this thread so if I have missed something then my apologises.

              Comment


                #52
                Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                gmeredith,

                Their proofs are based on the idea that when dealing with infinity, 9.9999... and 99.9999... have the same number of decimal places so when subtracting the two numbers, the decimal part disappears. If you start with a finite number of decimal places,no matter how many, 9.9999..(finite repeat) will always be less than 10.

                Comment


                  #53
                  Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                  Originally posted by gmeredith17 View Post
                  But why bother worrying about how many decimals when you can just use '>='.
                  Gee.. I don't know. I didn't know that every number in every numeric field must have decimals? Didn't know that you guys use decimals in everything, and if people are having trouble with decimals, how do they manage using them routinely in these fields?! Huh! Sounds like a self-defeating argument.

                  These are theoretical answers to theoretical questions (really nit-picking questions) because anyone would agree if you have a numeric field incrementing on integer, then logically:
                  x>9
                  is better than
                  x>=10

                  But some like to loose the big picture and argue the exceptions.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                    Originally posted by G Gabriel View Post
                    anyone would agree if you have a numeric field incrementing on integer, then logically:
                    x>9
                    is better than
                    x>=10

                    But some like to loose the big picture and argue the exceptions.
                    The point is that anyone or everyone doesn't agree with that hypothesis and conclusion for a variety of reasons.

                    Now others have multiple points of view and can determine for themselves what is appropriate.
                    Al Buchholz
                    Bookwood Systems, LTD
                    Weekly QReportBuilder Webinars Thursday 1 pm CST

                    Occam's Razor - KISS
                    Normalize till it hurts - De-normalize till it works.
                    Advice offered and questions asked in the spirit of learning how to fish is better than someone giving you a fish.
                    When we triage a problem it is much easier to read sample systems than to read a mind.
                    "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler."
                    Albert Einstein

                    http://www.iadn.com/images/media/iadn_member.png

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                      I have yet to see those "variety of reasons". As long as this thread has gone, haven't seen them yet and don't suppose will ever see them.

                      This "debate" has reached the point of diminishing returns.. all points to be made have already been made and each can make up their mind or dig their heels.. either way, is no skin off my nose.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                        if you do not like filter="field >= 10"
                        what you think about using the .not. operator:

                        .not.(field<10)
                        Last edited by rleunis; 10-23-2009, 06:44 AM.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                          Originally posted by G Gabriel View Post
                          I have yet to see those "variety of reasons"
                          I covered, earlier in the thread, the only "variety of reasons" that matter,
                          • #1 and foremost, it is not slower, it is exactly the same time to execute in Alpha Five (or just about any other computer or language still in existence). While a useful inquiry, especially if there was any time difference, the answer is 0.0000000 seconds difference in time to execute
                          • #2. It is logically clearer to developers and other readers of code. Clarity of code is always important, unless you wish to protect your source code through confusion - which almost always backfires when you need to revisit the code 6 months later)
                          Hi Ron,

                          Originally posted by rleunis View Post
                          if you do not like filter="field >= 10" what you think about using the .not. operator: .not.(field<10)
                          While a clever solution, it takes longer to execute in Alpha 5, albeit an almost unmeasurable amount, as Alpha's expression evaluation is extremely fast. Most compilers (not the AEX Alpha file code compile which is not really a compile in the computer language sense) in computer languages that do clever compiler optimizations, and one of them would convert .not.(field<10) to field>=10

                          What really drives coders crazy, is when a compiler sees something called Loop-invariant code motion (often not seen by a coder, or for timing delays) that is really a repetitive operation in the loop, as in
                          for i =1 to 50
                          x=10
                          next
                          eliminates it to
                          x=10
                          I'm absolutely sure Alpha Five's Xbasic does no compiler optimizations at all, as it is primarily an interpreted language. There are times, however, that the expression evaluator seems to do some minor expression optimization in it's execution, most likely Common subexpression elimination, but I have not explicitly checked for this.

                          But for those looking for speed, it really pays off if you understand the methods of loop optimization (especially loop unrolling), as these can be applied manually for big increases in speed.
                          Regards,

                          Ira J. Perlow
                          Computer Systems Design


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                          Comment


                            #58
                            Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                            Originally posted by csda1 View Post
                            I covered, earlier in the thread, the only "variety of reasons" that matter,
                            If that's the best anyone could come up with in opposition,it's pretty lame if you ask me.
                            As to the first reason, my research on that came empty, so I will take your word for it but, and that goes into the second reason, clarity of code, that comes from clarity of mind which seems lacking with some.

                            It's a simple logic:
                            If something is "More than or equal to" something else, then logically it is simply more than the thing immediately before that other thing. If I explain this to my Neighbor's cat, she will get it the first time. It is not that people don't understand that, but for psychological impairments that seem to challenge self-affirmation, they refuse to understand it. Can't help anyone there and getting tired of trying.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                              Originally posted by rleunis View Post
                              if you do not like filter="field >= 10"
                              what you think about using the .not. operator:

                              .not.(field<10)
                              I would if I were a contortionist
                              .not.(field<10) is the same as field>9
                              What would you rather use? Assuming of course that the increment is an integer of 1.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                                You stated: "The point of my question is the implementation of the combined operands ">=" and "<="."

                                So I thought you did not like combined operands...

                                That's why I gave you an alternative solution...

                                The restriction of an integer of 1 was not part of the original post, I think...

                                Anyway it does not change my post and validity of it, I think.

                                It's also valid for any numeric value..

                                "What would you rather use?"

                                I do not have a bias towards any solution. Just the one which works and is in line with what I feel is right...As long as the result is the same.

                                I think this indeed rounds it up nicely:
                                "but for psychological impairments that seem to challenge self-affirmation, they refuse to understand it"
                                Last edited by rleunis; 10-24-2009, 01:58 PM.

                                Comment

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