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Thread: Agast at the cost of the v10 University

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Agast at the cost of the v10 University

    I must be missing something. If you paid, for example, $1000 to attend the training and videos were made available to those who did not attend for $500, you would be a bit upset, would you not?.
    If you just bought the videos you wouldn't be getting the benefit of interaction during the labs or being able to ask the lecturer questions. Therefore providing them at a lower price makes sense.

    Probably a moot point as I'm not sure there would be many takers at $500:)

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Agast at the cost of the v10 University

    Quote Originally Posted by gmeredith17 View Post
    If you just bought the videos you wouldn't be getting the benefit of interaction during the labs or being able to ask the lecturer questions. Therefore providing them at a lower price makes sense.

    Probably a moot point as I'm not sure there would be many takers at $500:)
    Agreed...Videos from seminars are common and are also offered at a FRACTION of the cost.
    Bill Griffin
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  3. #33
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    Default Re: Agast at the cost of the v10 University

    I don't know the detailed economics but I've put on a (or assisted with) enough meetings to be pretty sure that the anticipated attendance/cost dynamic for most Alpha seminar/meetings will not generate enough revenues to allow professional video to be created.

    This is an off-the-top-of-my-head guess but I'd say you'd need a minimum paid attendance of 100 before you could even think about the additional cost of video done well. Video done badly can't really be charged for and satisfies nobody.
    Finian

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Agast at the cost of the v10 University

    [QUOTE=gmeredith17;519513]If you just bought the videos you wouldn't be getting the benefit of interaction during the labs or being able to ask the lecturer questions. Therefore providing them at a lower price makes sense.[QUOTE]

    Can it be done w/o making those who attended angry?

    Quote Originally Posted by gmeredith17 View Post
    Probably a moot point as I'm not sure there would be many takers at $500:)
    As I stated, just an example.

    kenn

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Agast at the cost of the v10 University

    Ken,

    Can it be done w/o making those who attended angry?
    I don't know because it doesn't make me feel angry. I see the attendees getting more out of it than the video subscribers. They get personal attention in the labs and have their questions answered as well as receiving a copy of the videos. I imagine some would use it as I networking opportunity and to build relationships with the Alpha team. This issue just doesn't make me feel angry. On the contrary I think the more different methods Alpha provide to learn to use their product the better. Everyone learns in slightly different ways. Some from books, others practical experience, one on one tuition, lectures etc.

    As I stated previously Alpha may have some work to do to get the pricing right for each different method and maybe some will feel cheated but I'm just glad they are making the effort. Maybe a better option would be to take the lecture on the road. If you can get enough people interested in a particular location that justifies the expense to Alpha then that would reduce some of the cost of flights and hotels. This would need to be worked into the price of the lectures to cover the extra expense to Alpha but overall should work out cheaper.

    Unfortunately I have no experience with setting up these things and the costs involved. A previous post suggested it would be very expensive to produce a professional looking video so maybe that won't be an option. Ultimately Alpha will need to spend some time reviewing how many have taken up the offer and if it isn't enough then look into what their customers need or are willing to pay.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Agast at the cost of the v10 University

    Quote Originally Posted by gmeredith17 View Post
    I don't know because it doesn't make me feel angry. I see the attendees getting more out of it than the video subscribers. They get personal attention in the labs and have their questions answered as well as receiving a copy of the videos. I imagine some would use it as I networking opportunity and to build relationships with the Alpha team. This issue just doesn't make me feel angry. On the contrary I think the more different methods Alpha provide to learn to use their product the better. Everyone learns in slightly different ways. Some from books, others practical experience, one on one tuition, lectures etc.
    I agree with you except for the personnal attention in the labs. Labs like this are very time consuming and since they have so much on the agenda, something has to give; course material or the labs.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmeredith17 View Post
    Unfortunately I have no experience with setting up these things and the costs involved. A previous post suggested it would be very expensive to produce a professional looking video so maybe that won't be an option. Ultimately Alpha will need to spend some time reviewing how many have taken up the offer and if it isn't enough then look into what their customers need or are willing to pay.
    I've had an active part in planning and presenting at state and national fraud conferences including participating in a computer lab as well teaching a 1 hr computer lab. The time goes by so fast that it's difficult to get everything covered adequately.

    I wonder if the cart isn't before the horse? My vote is to get the v10 tutorials, reference manuals etc out before any training. There are a LOT more folks who need it compared to the number who can afford the training. A Lack of docs could give Alpha a black eye. I know the docs are in the works but they are passed the estimated release date by a couple of months. I'm not being critical here, just stating facts.

    One thing is sure, this message board is Alpha's greatest asset for public relations amongst the users. We are blessed to be able to get the quality of help as well as express out opinions.

    kenn

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Agast at the cost of the v10 University

    I believe we have gotten a bit off track as to the goal of this conference. For Alpha, I believe the goal is to execute a quality training endeavor to generate and proliferate expertice in their product in a developer community, and in that proliferation of expertice in their product, the value of their product can be disseminated into society through the production of quality end-stage products. The production of high quailty end-stage products will bring fame and noteriety to the company and result in prosperity to Alpha. Any arguments there?

    OK, so breaking that down, we have
    1. A quality training endeavor
    2. Generate and proliferate expertice
    3. In a developer community

    In my opinion it's a numbers game, and the numbers are in the number of the developers in the community to whom Alpha will be reaching. It is also about how to generating and proliferating expertice. I will repeat what I said before, that at the very best, what is taken away from attending these long and intense training events is at most 20% (and I believe that high), and without high quality material to be taken away for reference and review, the generating and proliferating expertice is not optimized. A quality, high cost conference with minimal reference material will produce low numbers of developers reached and moderate overall long term quality. A high cost conference with video reference material produce low numbers of developers reached with high long term quality AND reach far greater numbers of developers by dissemination of the reference material well beyod the attendees, and significantly increase the proliferation of expertice.

    If I was going through the great expense and effort of a conference like this, I would believe the cost-benefit ratio of the added expense and effort of videoing the event and have produced the event as a major reference resource and product proliferation tool would certainly be commensurate with the goal and a value not to be missed.
    Mike W
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  8. #38
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    Default Re: Agast at the cost of the v10 University

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Wilson View Post
    I believe we have gotten a bit off track as to the goal of this conference. For Alpha, I believe the goal is to execute a quality training endeavor to generate and proliferate expertice in their product in a developer community, and in that proliferation of expertice in their product, the value of their product can be disseminated into society through the production of quality end-stage products. The production of high quailty end-stage products will bring fame and noteriety to the company and result in prosperity to Alpha. Any arguments there?
    I agree that this has become a bit off the mark but none the less, a worthwile communication for Alpha.

    To answer your question; Yes! Alpha says their goal for the training (as opposed to the overall goal) is this:

    "Hands-On In depth training courses designed to allow you to build Modern AJAX web database applications rapidly with Alpha Five v10."

    "Attendance at the course will also help prepare you to become an "Alpha Certified Developer" in 2010"

    I would say this goes well beyond the developers, assuming developers mean those who do it for a living or are making some money with Alpha products. I suspect the majority of Alpha users are not full time developers or those making money at it but those who use it for personal or company use. Their needs are just as important. Overall, the training sounds provocative and exciting but will live up to its billing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Wilson View Post
    In my opinion it's a numbers game, and the numbers are in the number of the developers in the community to whom Alpha will be reaching. It is also about how to generating and proliferating expertice. I will repeat what I said before, that at the very best, what is taken away from attending these long and intense training events is at most 20% (and I believe that high), and without high quality material to be taken away for reference and review, the generating and proliferating expertice is not optimized. A quality, high cost conference with minimal reference material will produce low numbers of developers reached and moderate overall long term quality. A high cost conference with video reference material produce low numbers of developers reached with high long term quality AND reach far greater numbers of developers by dissemination of the reference material well beyod the attendees, and significantly increase the proliferation of expertice.
    Agreed, it is a numbers game but cost aside, I suspect the vast majority of users would rather have the supporting docs etc. Don't you think the best way for Alpha to meet the goals as you describe would be to put a high priority on the supporting documentation vs training that only a few would attend? Even if 100 plus folks attend (too many for effective training), that is a small number compared to the rest of the users. My guess is most companies that purchase A5v10 will commit staff to its use with maybe hiring an outside consultant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Wilson View Post
    If I was going through the great expense and effort of a conference like this, I would believe the cost-benefit ratio of the added expense and effort of videoing the event and have produced the event as a major reference resource and product proliferation tool would certainly be commensurate with the goal and a value not to be missed.
    I did not see any reference to video production/distribution.

    This, no doubt will be intense training, the quality of which is yet to be determined as is it's overall value. Alpha says the number of attendees is limited. If this is to be a truely hands on training, then the numbers have to be around 35. Much more than that and it becomes like a college lecture. Like any classroom, the fewer the students, the greater the personal attention. Perhaps that is why Alpha has priced it as they have. If I knew the class would be limited to 35 or so and as a result, more personal attention will be given, I could rationalze my justification for the high cost. However, there is no reference to class size or personal attention, only hands on computer lab. Computer lab to Alpha, you and me can mean 3 different things. We should NOT read into or assume what or how it will be delivered.

    kenn

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Agast at the cost of the v10 University

    Since hands on is an important part of the course, attendance will be strictly limited so as to ensure that the lecturer can walk around the class during the hands on exercises and comfortably provide personal attention.

    It is with this in mind that pricing was set

    Thanks
    Richard Rabins
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    Alpha Software

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Agast at the cost of the v10 University

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Rabins View Post
    Since hands on is an important part of the course, attendance will be strictly limited so as to ensure that the lecturer can walk around the class during the hands on exercises and comfortably provide personal attention.

    It is with this in mind that pricing was set

    Thanks
    Hi Richard,

    No disrespect, the number of people in the class has nothing to do with the cost of the class. That is, not unless it is being held in the penthouse suite of a top hotel.

    My question is, how by "Attendance at the course will also help prepare you to become an "Alpha Certified Developer" in 2010", will there be an exam to become a "Certified Alpha Developer" and will the commercial world recognize that qualification?
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    Keith Hubert
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  11. #41
    Alpha Software Employee Richard Rabins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Agast at the cost of the v10 University

    Keith good morning

    no problem with the question

    the cost to develop the course is a follows

    five days of preparation/writing of course materials for each day of the course

    so a five day course takes twenty five days to prepare
    Dr Heller is a seasoned Developer/Author/Trainer so his daily rate is what you would expect of someone with his background.

    So you can appreciate the cost that we incur consists of

    course prepartion cost 25 days
    cost to actually teach the course 5 days
    hotel costs
    costs for other people on the alpha side to assist Martin in preparation

    re certification

    Yes we plan on offering a certification exam in 2010

    will it be recognized?

    we often get asked by customers for "certified consultants" so the answer is yes

    as the awareness and demand for Alpha Five grows (which is happening for v10) we anticipate that being a experienced and certified consultant will become an increasingly valuable asset.
    Richard Rabins
    Co Chairman
    Alpha Software

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