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Thread: 3523 .... lots of issues

  1. #1
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    Default 3523 .... lots of issues

    Just wanted to let people know that I loaded the 2736-3523 build not thinking anything of it and my whole Alpha world turned upside down again!! After a couple of heated releases in the past, I thought Alpha was content to not use the user community as a Beta pool .... or at least let us know when they are!! Now, some will say .... if you noticed a problem you should have backed off. Well, I only program in Alpha from time to time .... so, at first, I always think its me. After many hours of testing and re-coding looking for ways around speratic issues with my form, backed down to 2659-3515 and things seem to have stabalized. Obviously not everything is going to be rosey .... new patches must have been put out for a reason.

    Now ..... Im also going to hear, 'did you turn in bug reports' ... after I fix up my application and make sure things are what they need to be for my users, I will go back and try to isolate the issues and report.

    A bit about what I was experiencing ..... base queries where being lost .... filters where acting up .... forms where becoming unstable going from design to form view ... and thats just some of what I was seeing ......

    Hope this helps people that think they are going crazy ..... I would stay away from 2736-3523 until it gets worked out.

    Glenn

    Some other things .... when re-sorting based on 2 different sort buttons, after sorting one way and then the other a number of times .... data in dropdown contols becom corrupted .... does not happen with 3515
    Last edited by peterg000; 02-09-2010 at 01:58 PM. Reason: Additional Info

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Peter

    The only was that it is going to get sorted out, is when you find a specific item that is reproducible (get confirmation from this forum) or are able to get the same "bug" (error) using the Alpha Sports Sample is to send that "Bug Report" to Alpha.

    What I do when new patches come out, I don't load it onto my working copy (the one I am using as that juncture) but load in on to an alpha V10 copy that I call Partches working. And then I use a copy of the app that I want to work on (to see if there are "bugs")

    But again if there is something specific that you could send Alpha then get confirmation and then do it - it would really help a lot of people, just knowing what the specific item was.

    "Lot of issues" won't get you help - specifics will.

    Post a sample to the forum and let others look at your app and see if they can get the same "error" or issue. You can strip down you app so that there is no sensitive information or just dummy info. You will get a lot of help.

    Everyone here will be glad to help.

    I haven't had a chance to work with the Feb 2 build, was going to try this weekend (to much snow this weekend to try - out shoveling).

    Tom Baker

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Tom ..... your 100% correct in your technique for testing patches. .... and when I have time, I will try and doc the bugs I have seen and send in ... this is really time driven. With that said, my intent here is just to warn people that there are problems with 3523 that cause app problems in areas you might have thought where solid. In my opinion, 3523 shouldnt be used until more solid release comes out .... breaks things it shouldnt even go near. But hey, just my opinion .... :)

    Glenn

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Anybody else having issies with 3523?

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    I seem to remember several posts regarding issues with this build....and warnings from them prior to your posting in fact.....
    Mike
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Mike .... most of them seemed to talk around the edges, but I get your point. So everyone is in agreement 3523 is not a stable release? Does anyone have any feedback as to whether Alpha knows this?

    Glenn

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    I am only using the web features of this application and so far I have not had any issues with this build. I installed it because I wanted to submit a bug report (Script crashes when you use a field that has a value with a comma ex 'Joes Pool Hall, Inc.' in it to filter a cacading combo box field).

    The message said i did not have the current build and i should install it and see if the issue persists. I Installed it like a good alpha customer should and the issue I was having still exists.

    I have not had any other problems that I am aware of. All of the pages approx 10 woohoo still work fine. There are a few other things happening that don't make sense to me, mostly because I still don't understand what is happening in the background. The desktop to the web is a tough leap.

    System:
    Vista 64 up to date on workstation.
    Vista 64 w/Sql Express 2008 on a remote IIS / ALPHA server.

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Frank .... thats exactly it ... stuff in the background .... you just dont know until you run over it. Also ... the web stuff might not show up the same issues that are popping up on the Desktop side. Im almost certain in the latest release if you use a basequery and then run a custom query then show-all from controls on your form ... you lose the base query. This is some drastic stuff as to how a form would work. Im going to try and setup a test system this weekend to run through some of these issues and document if I can.

    Thanks for the feedback Frank ......

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    I'm interested in Tom's approach of quarantining new patches. He loads them "on to an alpha V10 copy that I call Patches working."

    Question: Is it possible to have a working and test version of A5 on the same machine, or are 2 machines required?

    Thanks.

    -Kurt (perspective user)

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Glad to hear I'm not going insane.

    I connect to postgres and advantage database backends and was trying to create sql queries using the querie genie and import and boy was it misbehaving.

    I would create a querie in the genie and preview the records and all appeared well; as soon as I saved the active link I would get an argument error. Could not get it to work; Also, in the genie if I went back to modify something it would flip out, trash my filter and complain about the where cause being incomplete.

    At first I thought it was my filter as it uses a function that connects to an active x control i wrote to convert a date to ticks found in ms's .net framework. Again, it previews fine but craps out in the end.

    I was also trying to modify a set that was created in v8 and v10 kept complaining about a corrupt set.

    I don't even know what a stable version of v10 is and if anyone has had any stability with a desktop environment I'd sure like to know which one it is.

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Kurt,
    From what I know .... you can have both versions running on your system. Remember, backups are your friend!!

    Sorry .. thought you were talking about running different versions on same computer. Even easier with same version ... just make a development directory and run your develpment/testing from there. Only disclaimer there is that you dont have any non-standard directory re-direction going on in your app.

    Glenn

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    FYI, There is a FREE download from Microsoft called Virtual PC that will allow you to run a virtual pc in a window. There is another FREE program from VmWare that does the same thing with more features. Seems to me that this might help some of you in your concerns about development isolation.

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    FREE download from Microsoft called Virtual PC that will allow you to run a virtual pc in a window
    You're making this sound like a totally free situation when, in fact, you will need an additional Windows license for whatever OS you run in the virtual machine....just want to make sure readers are aware of this aspect.
    Mike
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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    I don't think you have to have an additional license. I never had an activation problem with virual PC.

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    The additional OS license, not a virtual license is what I am referring to. If you are running Windows7 as primary. Then have a VM and load in say XP. You would have to have a license for XP.....or Win98....or Windows7 as a second copy........

    If you have the following versions of Win7 then one license of XP is included.
    If you are running Windows 7 Professional, Enterprise or Ultimate, you get one licensed Windows XP for free with XP mode. Any other OS needs to be licensed indivudually, whether this runs on hardware or in a VM is not relevant.
    Mike
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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    All good discussion on development isolation, but the main reason for the thread was to let everyone know 3523 was not a stable release and to hopefully put a red flag out to Alpha that the need to re-visit this idea of using the user community as beta testers when they put out an update. I DO NOT agree with others here that I have to walk on egg shells and setup this test environment to test out Alphas updates .... obviously, I have a development environment that gets hit with the update first and never goes out to the end-user if there are major burps.

    I always backup my enviroment before an update ..... I always throw the update on my development environment first and do preliminary testing .... and I always check with the users during initial implementation into production to make sure no red flags that would necessitate a back out.

    But .... with all that said, from my experience, the bugs that are in the updates .... if so easy for me to find, why did Alpha not find them during their testing????

    Also ..... I have seen no communication from Alpha about the issues and a time frame for a more stable update.

    oh well .... back to coding work-arounds ... :)

    Glenn

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Quote Originally Posted by omagarc View Post
    I don't even know what a stable version of v10 is and if anyone has had any stability with a desktop environment I'd sure like to know which one it is.
    I must say that I am not an actual user of version 10, BUT I read this threads to get idea where Alpha 10 desktop is now.

    There is not much new features in version 10 compared version 9, so you may think everything should be okey, so I am sad to read this posts. I would like to get the new debugger, but I don't know now.

    What is the reason there are still issues in Desktop side. I can't see any reason why. Does the development of Web side cause troubles in Desktop side? Is it time for two different products?

    Ken

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    sorry twice....deleted

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    3506 sql query genie is also broken.

    this won't run as a filter to the same table.

    SELECT DISTINCT [Chart Number] AS Chart_Number
    FROM MWCAS
    ORDER BY [Chart Number] DESC, [Date Created] DESC

    as soon as I use the query builder to create the filter and come back to the original query, the where clause disappears. pasting it on the sql window doesn't work either.

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Quote Originally Posted by kkfin View Post
    I must say that I am not an actual user of version 10, BUT I read this threads to get idea where Alpha 10 desktop is now.
    Same here.

    I got a call from Alpha software offering me V10 at upgrade price less an additional discount. My answer was
    1) I will not buy the current V10, not even for 1$
    2) If you release a stable bug free V9 or V10, I'll buy it on the spot at full regular price (don't mind paying even more); 1 copy for me + 1 copy for a client of mine without hesitation.

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    If you release a stable bug free V9 or V10
    Hi Gaby,

    I guess you better quantify stable free. Your never going to get a bug free version of Alpha5. It just isn't going to happen. As far as stability goes I have found it far more stable to date than V9 (although I'm not using the latest patch). That doesn't mean bug free but at least I'm not getting those unhandled exception errors that were popping out of V9 all the time.

    I feel your anguish over this and have emailed Richard and Selwyn on a number of occasions regarding this sort of issue. I think they know V9 was left out in the cold but in their minds its to late to do anything about that now and its all about V10.

    If your just using the desktop stuff and not having insurmountable problems with V9 I would stick with it. For me there were no new additions to the V10 desktop side of things that were a must have and only upgraded because V9 wasn't working for me.

    Geoff

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Spent three days reviewing my scripts on a system that worked fine prior to 3523. Wish I had checked here first. My problem is when I post transactions to a master account record, sometimes my master account record is duplicated or in some cases the master account record is actually deleted. What a mess I have now. Hope a new patch will come out that corrects the issues that people have been having.

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    I think the point here is that when an update is released...users should not have to back up there databases...or test the patch before using it!!!! this is what we pay Alpha Software to do!!!! there is no excuse for software to be released to users with such devastating flaws!

    No to mention...even if I were to waste my time testing a patch when it is released to approve it's stability before installing it on my clients system, there is nothing stopping my clients from downloading and installing a patch on their own...in fact Alpha alerts users that a new patch has been released through the start up screen in Alpha! I had several users who installed the updates without consulting me before doing so and made it extremely time consuming and difficult for me to isolate the numerous problems they encountered...not to mention the amounts of corrupt data the patch inflicted upon my users!

    Frankly, to tell someone not to install a patch before it is tested by the user is unrealistic and absurd! That is not the way it works! Users should never have to test an update that is pushed on to it's users! Ever!
    Lee Goldberg
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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    On top of that...there is no excuse for releasing an update that damages a users data! Unexplained records being deleted/duplicated/written over. That is the hardest issue to correct and in some cases can only be corrected by recovering from a backup and re-entering the data! And trying to explain that to a client is even more difficult and frankly...embarressing.
    Lee Goldberg
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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Lee,
    in fact Alpha alerts users that a new patch has been released through the start up screen
    If your users are seeing this screen, then updates should be the least of your worries!! It tells me that they must have the full development version and that they could mess up much more than any update ever could!!! My runtimes do not show this screen--and even if they did so somehow by default I would simply have my own instead.

    Just a thought.

    Curious about your premise though.....if I were to use what you just stated literally, then I should not be concerned about say an update that QuickBooks puts out....but then what about their recent R9 (I believe) update? It made their software basically unusable for untold users....and there have been MANY glitches they have introduced into their software with updates---and many which they specifically stated will NOT be fixed......I could give more examples as well.

    But you must know this and I must just be not thinking clearly. Alpha must be the ONLY software that has ever done this to their userbase.....

    Yeah, being quite facetious about this--considering the time, that is the best I can do!! :-)

    I do agree with some of what you are concerned about, and recent statements by Alpha imply they do also about certain things you have stated---have you read them??????? They are recent threads/posts--within say the last few days....one by Martin Heller the most recent I believe.....
    Mike
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  26. #26
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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    I do have developers copy installed on one stations in all of my clients networks as well as run-time versions. The reason being When presenting alpha to potential clients as the database software I provide as a solution for their custom database needs, I also insist that Alpha is a user friendly, easy to use development package, that my clients ( the ones I feel are educated enough in databases and minimal programming skills) can use on their own to make small changes to the database, such as moving objects on a form, conditional formating, editing labels and headings and basic entry level routines that they can easily perform without having to call myself and pay for 15-30 minutes of my time to change the font size and move two fields on a report. I have one client who wrote an entire database for his company in A4 but hired myself to convert to A5. Another who has formal training in Access. And a few other that I have trained in alpha over several months. I feel that they have reasonable education to get into alpha and do some minor things. I work very closely with my clients so they understand as much as possible about how their database is designed and how it works and document my work down to the littlest detail.. Also the developer copy comes in handy when there is something that needs to be done immediately to a database and I am driving 2-3 hours in the car to another client. I can instruct my clients on how to make changes or troubleshoot problems over the phone and then check and document their changes at a later time. So it is not completely unrealistic to have the developers copy installed on a clients system. In fact I have found it to be a very good selling point for my services as well as alpha.

    Also, I spent an entire week at a very informative alpha training session in Boston two weeks ago. When the training began there we the several occasions where the class encountered minor issues or different results than the instructor or the person next to them when completing the lessons for the training. The instructor informed us numerous times that everyone was not getting the same results because everyone was on a different version and that we should all upgrade to the newest version. At no point was it mentioned that updating the software may effect your other programs and that you should uninstall the update when training ends or to be sure to test the update with the all the programs you are currently working on to ensure there are no bugs. About 50% of the trainees where beginners to alpha and had either started to build an application for their business or not yet developed an application. I would think this would be something that should've been mentioned.

    I understand that my previous post was probably a little stronger than it needed to be, however, it is 4 am in the morning, and I have spent every night over the past two weeks working til the wee hours of the morning to fix the problems this has caused, and I am obviously frustrated on top of extremely exhausted. So I apologize to you Mike and anyone else if I came off as a little short tempered and rude. I do understand that Selwyn and other programmers at alpha are human just like everyone else and mistakes are bound to happen. Just something so significant at this disappoints me and takes away a little bit of the confidence I had in the software and the company behind it. Don't get me wrong...I LOVE ALPHA and the Alpha Community, you guys are great, and I appreciate all the time you put into helping others! I think it is a revolutionary product and still in it's infancy despite decades in the making. I look forward to an exciting future with the software and hope that mistakes like this are taken very seriously as to repeat again in the future. This has been detrimental to my lively hood(meaning my paycheck! haha) over the past 2 weeks.
    Lee Goldberg
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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Also, I have yet to hear of an update from a major software company that did irreversible damage to a users underlying data.
    Lee Goldberg
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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    ...users should not have to back up there databases...or test the patch before using it!!!! this is what we pay Alpha Software to do!!!!

    Don't disagree. But it is what it is. I don't believe Alpha tests patches before they are released. Certainly not extensively. They expect us to do it and report back any bugs. That may be less than ideal, but that's the way it is.

    there is no excuse for software to be released to users with such devastating flaws!

    Don't know about the "devastating flaws". But just yesterday an IADN developer fixed a user's problem that the user was bitterly blaming Alpha for. It was bad coding on the user's end, not Alphas. Not saying that is the case with you because I don't know your situation.

    I had several users who installed the updates without consulting me before doing so and made it extremely time consuming and difficult for me to isolate the numerous problems they encountered...

    As Mike said, you gotta problem there. If you allow your users to do that (I read your other post), who do you blame? Alpha? Your clients? Yourself? - Just asking. ;)

    not to mention the amounts of corrupt data the patch inflicted upon my users!

    Again, no offense, there have been many instances of inappropriate programming techniques by end-users that have caused data corruption. Don't know about your particular case.

    Frankly, to tell someone not to install a patch before it is tested by the user is unrealistic and absurd! That is not the way it works!

    But that's the way it is, and has been, as long as I can remember in Alpha-world.

    Users should never have to test an update that is pushed on to it's users! Ever!

    "Should" is one of those funny words. There's the ideal, and there's the real. The reality is you're gonna have to test it or live w. the consequences. I'm not being critical of you. You're not the first person that has expressed such views. It's just that reality bites. :(

  29. #29
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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    All good comments .... peter is right .... lee is right. Question I would ask peter though .... If an end user of an application you wrote pointed out the possibility that your app was causing data corruption, what would you do? Say to them "Prove it!!" ... lol I may be wrong, and I apologize if I have not picked up on it, but I have not seen any communication from Alpha dealing with this issue whether on this forum or in the current release notes.

    Glenn

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    Default Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Question I would ask peter though .... If an end user of an application you wrote pointed out the possibility that your app was causing data corruption, what would you do? Say to them "Prove it!!"

    Not sure I follow your logic. I guess the developer has to ascertain if it is the user's fault. Alpha's fault or the developer's fault. I'm not saying that Alpha may not be at fault, it's possible, it's just that I have seen a lot of cases where developer caused the problem. Alpha has plenty of bugs in general, but data corruption is very rare in my experience.

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