Are we going to lose out with V11?

[bob9145]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

Nice,
Good Luck with it!

[CALocklin]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

Dave,

Sure your not missing something not moving to the cloud? ....

I'm coming in to this a bit late but if a customer comes to me and wants a program customized for their business (as many of mine have) and it will be considered as a sort of "competitive advantage" not to be shared with competitors and not to be used outside the office, why would I want to "move it to the cloud"?

The question is only half rhetorical - if there is a reason, I want to know.

FYI - the following reason is not sufficient to "move to the cloud":
I have some things where off-site sales people need access to certain information and that has been done but it is usually done by uploading specific data periodically to a web folder on my own site that runs only the portion of the app needed for the sales people. (Primarily because they don't want to put the WAS on their server.)

[DaveM]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

I have some things where off-site sales people need access to certain information and that has been done but it is usually done by uploading specific data periodically to a web folder on my own site that runs only the portion of the app needed for the sales people. (Primarily because they don't want to put the WAS on their server.)

Fortunately my apps are mostly for cars, but if I had such a scenario, they would have the was. I do have a couple people that enter inventory from car auctions and it is handled by logging in to a computer that has access to the database for inventory entry. I made a seperate way for them to get in.

I do not see why this could not be done so a rep could see the info needed and enter records if it has to be.

What did we do before the WAS??? We can still do it.

I really do not want my business roaming around in the cloud no more than necessary. Do You??




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[reddy2011]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

I totally agree with what BOB had said...

[Ted Giles]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

The various comments to my kick off thread make a lot of sense, and have helped me make up my mind to stick with desktop for my main business, and "tinker" with a WAS soultion to one of my Project Tracker and Invoicing apps.
I'm not looking at the cloud and don't want to be a Trail Blazer, which the head of Marathon Oil Europe once described to me as, "a guy in a buckskin suit with his ass shot full of arrows".
No profainty intended.
Having said all that, the WAS part of the forum is very active!

[DaveM]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

One of the latest!

I had 3 apps running on a server here at home. Small traffic and 1 was on the was while 2 were on IIs.

RR will no longer allow anyone to access the apps here. They shut me down. Granted this is a home account and not a business connection, but small amount of traffic. I learned a lot, so it was worth it.

It would cost me an additional 70.00 a month to be able to run from my isp.

I moved all three apps to a hosting company and all is well. It costs me less than running a computer 24/7. What needs I have for a db on these apps is small and I have sql supplied by the host(up to 12). I also have php and any else I really need.

Point is: Watch out for a shut down from an isp.

I intend to continue the desktop and runtime. I don't see a reason for me to continue was.

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[Peter.Greulich]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

Getting away from Ted's original question, but perhaps answering his more recent comment, I work for several clients who use the WAS internally - rather than the desktop. There are a lot of advantages for companies to do this. In particular, no need to upgrade software on individual machines (which is a huge headache) and the ability to use cheap Linux boxes rather than PCs. They're not on the "cloud", but they are on the WAS.

[DaveM]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

Peter,

That makes perfect sense.

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[bob9145]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

We use a Cisco's VPN to access our operating software s at my corp. It requires a 3 step log in that takes a couple minutes.
That would be an eternity on a smart phone. No worries, the software doesn't support mobile devices and probably never will.
The internal WAS is an interesting concept and some kind of hybrid of all of the above might keep everyone happy.

The keys to the future are access, user interface and collaboration. Access means anytime, anywhere with any device. Interface means interacting with your device in more natural and cool ways and collaboration means uniting people and empowering them with information. I am putting my money on, "In the Cloud." Sounds like a good name for a horse. Desktop?
not so much. LOL
Bob

[MichaelCarroll]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

I think it make tremendous sense for a company to deploy all of its applications via an intranet. There are fewer and fewer reasons in my humble opinion to build for the desktop.

For developers you could easily write a vertical application and sell the box and the software as a package deal.



Just a thought...

Regards,

Michael Carroll

www.redrocksbluesky.com
www.theminimalistrunner.com
[email protected]
435-275-5170

[CALocklin]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

I'm not against web apps of any kind - internet, intranet, or "the cloud". In fact, there are many advantages to internet apps both for the users and the developers. But I think it ultimately depends on the purpose, the cost, and what the user wants. A lot of the businesses I deal with are very small. Some are literally "mom and pop" - or even just "pop". Some of them only use one computer for their business. For them the internet isn't critical (at least not as far as their db application is concerned); cost is usually more important and developing for the desktop is usually faster and, therefore, less expensive - at least for now. It's also less expensive in that case to run the app on the computer they already have than it is to set up a web app on a Windows server and pay monthly fees for it. Another factor is that many of them already had a desktop app started and simply decided to have me finish it up or do their updates/mainenance. If I told them I would have to start over and built it as a web app they would probably have just gone somewhere else. Now if we are talking about a larger business or one with an existing server and they are building a new app, that's another story completely.

In other words, I'm not against running internet applications or desktop applications. I have customers running both types of apps - some one, some the other, and some both. I do have a problem with thinking that the new way is always better. To ignore any option when determining what will bring the best solution for the price is doing a disservice to the customer.

Personally, and maybe it's just because of what I'm used to (and the complexity of what I usually end up doing) but I think the desktop apps still have a slight advantage when it comes to versatility. However, web apps have come a long way and that's getting to be less and less of an issue.

[Ted Giles]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

Nice ad Michael, the only bug in the detail is the comment,
"*Not including application development".
From my perspective and I suspect a lot of others, for single or small company use, desktop is easiest to develop. I'd go up against any Access Developer any day to create a PoC.
You are quite correct when you say it makes sense to use an Intranet approach to commecial apps., however the devil is again in the detail. At present I can destribute desktop apps. easily and wuith simple instructions. (Well until Win 7 came and piddled on my fireworks until all of us on the forum worked out some fixes.)
Server installation seems to be a bit more tricky, and only having done it once in test on my test network with no Active Directory and Reverse Proxy issues to worry about is was a doddle. The real world is slightly different. As CAL says, its getting better all the time so I'll keep plugging away with my "tinkering" and hopefully experience an epiphany!

[jkwrpc]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

There have been any number of excellent comments about the future of the desktop, intranet and internet design. I have really enjoyed this thread for that reason.

Personal opinon, the desktop applications are here to stay, at least for the forseeable future. There are too many small businesses that do not host a webserver, nor want incur the added expense of dealing with a virtual server. For a small shop there are a lot of management details in running an internet/intranet application. You introduce things like port controls, firewalls, routers, etc. If you use off site storage you have issues the security of your data, privacy issues, etc., and maintaining reliable connectivity. All can be managed but it can be more complex and frankly take things from your customers control.

Perhaps the cloud is the future, but most of my customers (very small to small businesses), simply want to open their app and have it run. They dont want to troubleshoot issues such as connectivity changes, web server permissions, and so on.

For me, as a software developer, I dont want to have to become a network (hardware) person and have to take on that level of support. Supporting the app is one thing, supporting a network is another. If you have very many customers, there are too many configurations of network hardware for my taste, which I know is also the argument for moving to the web. I fear the drive to move to web based, cloud based apps may leave many of my customers behind.

Most of my customers remain content with the 'old' client -server world, spread into two or three tiers. I guess I am getting old, but there is enough of those clients left I should be able to make to retirement by developing functional applications to help them run their daily operations.

Such are the ramblings for this day...

[MichaelCarroll]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

Ted,

Why do I want to bother with their network? I am going to ship a box that I configured at my shop to my client. Its a black box for all they are concerned. They can put it in the DMZ if needed.

Ok so lets say that the software that I develop for my client can save admin or processing time of 1 or 2 people. Lets say that we only pay those peeps 20k per year. Thats a 40k per year reserve. So for 20k you could build a one off kicking system that would serve your clients incredibly well.

If the customer grows its is an easy path to put the WAS and database into the cloud or on a bigger server especially with all of the yummy virtual server tools out there.

Thanks for letting me throw my two bits in here.

Regards,

Michael Carroll

www.redrocksbluesky.com
www.theminimalistrunner.com
[email protected]
435-275-5170

[MichaelCarroll]

Re: Are we going to lose out with V11?

There have been any number of excellent comments about the future of the desktop, intranet and internet design. I have really enjoyed this thread for that reason.

Personal opinon, the desktop applications are here to stay, at least for the forseeable future. There are too many small businesses that do not host a webserver, nor want incur the added expense of dealing with a virtual server. For a small shop there are a lot of management details in running an internet/intranet application. You introduce things like port controls, firewalls, routers, etc. If you use off site storage you have issues the security of your data, privacy issues, etc., and maintaining reliable connectivity. All can be managed but it can be more complex and frankly take things from your customers control.

Perhaps the cloud is the future, but most of my customers (very small to small businesses), simply want to open their app and have it run. They dont want to troubleshoot issues such as connectivity changes, web server permissions, and so on.

For me, as a software developer, I dont want to have to become a network (hardware) person and have to take on that level of support. Supporting the app is one thing, supporting a network is another. If you have very many customers, there are too many configurations of network hardware for my taste, which I know is also the argument for moving to the web. I fear the drive to move to web based, cloud based apps may leave many of my customers behind.

Most of my customers remain content with the 'old' client -server world, spread into two or three tiers. I guess I am getting old, but there is enough of those clients left I should be able to make to retirement by developing functional applications to help them run their daily operations.
.

You buy a windows 7 box. Install MySQL. (you can program a script to automate this), Install the Alpha WAS. Install the licenses. Publish your app.

Give the box to their network guy. He plugs it in. Everyone that needs the app or apps has it.

Now here is where it gets really cool. When you need to update the app. You can publish the update easily from your office.

Desktop updates - I am really glad that I left that when I left Access development.

Lets say that it more complex than that. They have a database that they are presently using. Say like Yardi property management running off of MSSQL.

Again - box is sent. You use VMC or Microsoft RDP to connect in and configure that database connectivity. Or you do it in combination with the network guy.

You put a sample database on your laptop. You build your app and deploy. Never do you have to touch any PC hardware or play with networking issues. Except for permissions to the database.

Ok I may be making this much more simple than it is, but its light years ahead of the desktop nightmare of having to touch each machine.

As an long time Citrix / Windows Terminal Server "Propeller Head" the only way I could ever see using a desktop app would be if it ran on the server and was published via Citrix or RDP.

OK... that is my not so humble opinion and you all can throw rocks at it if you would like... But remember I know how to run barefoot...

Regards,

Michael Carroll

www.redrocksbluesky.com
www.theminimalistrunner.com
[email protected]
435-275-5170