** General Suggestions - Feedback Welcome **

[SNusa]

I like Alpha Software, (great company and a nice product overall) but there are a few existing issues that (IMHO) are being overlooked.
As a result, their longterm strategies & company growth (IMHO) could be affected.

In a few months, Alpha will be rolling out their new version 11, that looks as if it claims to do "just about everything under the sun."

Once it arrives:
I'd like to see them spend a year/version on nothing more than internal core code cleanup, gui refinements and solid / organized reference materials. (Of course, they'll have to come up with a neat marketing concept for this.... (And for years, I've thought that this is a development model that the tech industry should be headed in. ~ Why? Because it's maturing.) ~Time to stop adding new features on top of old problems like Vista turned out.

(Knowing I need to find a specific reference / answer in the online wiki help creates a touch of anxiety.) ~So much so in fact, that I always try to get what I need from the older .CHM files which I'm told are a history lesson in v.11.)

This would also give them time to see where the handheld market is really headed... ~Almost like when Microsoft moved from Vista to Win-7. Serious code cleanup. Without which, (IMHO) the future of Windows could have been threatened.

As a fairly new user, I had to result to watching about 60 hours of training materials to get what I needed as a foundation. (That was a first, as I usually go at it "hard core" and just dig into reference manuals!) I honestly think their lack of manuals, (WHICH INCLUDES SEVERAL SPIRAL BOUND REFERENCE MANUALS: FUNCTIONS, SQL, & XBASIC) and a logical help system layout is a big obstacle for new users.... More so every version, as the a5 program feature set grows in complexity.

What I've noticed recently from Alpha, is that all these new features are being added to a5 at the expense of making it easier to use, particularly for new users. (Trivial to a highly experienced user, POSSIBLY. But everyone is a new user sometime.) They are also not overly (very) concerned with existing and features in the gui that may not be working "quite right." (Some of their reasoning is logical with all the new UI enhancements replacing older stuff, and the efforts required to get v11 out.) Regardless, overall this is very alarming. Especially since the company (Alpha) want their product to be used by new users..... Otherwise you end up with a "geriatric user base." (partial joke, but not totally.) ~This combined with "spotty" documentation is a sure recipe for disaster long term! (IMHO)

I had recommended two suggestions which would have made the GUI much easier for beginners to learn. 1.) A go-back button when searching for Action-Scripts. (Because once you pick the wrong one, you have to start searching from scratch each time. And 2.) Access to the rich set of features (like the Xbasic exlorer) for individual Action Scripts that are converted to Xbasic. ~Responses in both instances were this is not important. (Here I'm thinking "not important to who" and "Alpha is not seeing the bigger picture here.") Make it easier for new users to learn to first walk, and then run.... And you'll end up with a lot more users / customers....

Don't get me wrong, training videos and webinars are great. But back when I went to school, books & reference materials were part of the equation. "I had the tools I needed right in front of me."

"Just take a look at some of the questions here on the forum.... Many of them are extremely fundamental. If it was easy to find the answers, people wouldn't spend all this time typing, waiting & hoping for help..... As a side result, it would improve the overall quality of info this forum. Instant gratification, isn't that what the world wants?"

Done ranting, sorry!

PS: ANYONE ELSE AGREE?

[christappan]

I think if you look through the forum long enough, you'll find that many others have suggested similar things but Alpha is at least content with the status of help documentation (often defending it in the forum) and more interested in the innovation of the product than reworking things. Within the last 2 years, Dr. Heller was hired for the purpose of documentation (from which we've seen little resulting product, likely because his talents were pulled in other directions) and the help documentation was turned into a wiki with the un-stated suggestion that users should update the help documentation instead of Alpha employees taking that on.

My guess is that with a continued push to stay on top of innovative opportunities and known updates/upgrades such as the .NET/IIS integration, your wish here probably won't be granted.

[MikeC]

Hi Robert,
Although I agree for the most part in what you have said I just want to mention a few things again (for the umpteenth time on the message board!!) some things regarding the help files.

First, I think Alpha creating a physical hard copy would not be a feasible venture---if you take the entire help file and convert it to pdf you will have well in excess of 8000 pages. This is not only a bit much for anyone to "manually" find things (much less hold in hands or lap!), but the cost would be prohibitive to either have users purchase or for Alpha to distribute freely. There has been discussed here ways to convert the chm to pdf for those who wish to do this on their own and could be printed out easily then as well (a free way--no software conversion purchase).

The problem, and this is where I for sure disagree with Alpha Software's take on this, is that the online and downloadable help files are no longer supported....which leaves the WIKI for the most relevant features/improvements---but not just the WIKI as that does not have everything either--you have to many times go to the "What's New" for various versions to find out certain things.

Yes, the help is fragmented...but here is where a work-around, if you will, which is present which most here seem to not even attempt to do. LEARN how to search the message board, the online help file, the WIKI, and the several other resources that are available to us ("What's New", websites such as AlphaToGo, Learning Alpha, AIMS, and many others). If there is something present in Alpha I can most times find it---and usually in fairly short order....and this is WITHOUT many times ever even knowing if it exists (like looking in the dictionary to learn how to spell a word!). There are certain basic methods I employ which allow me to accomplish this....and have spelled them out more than once here on the message board.

The above takes a bit of time to do....but the dividends are so huge that I am in awe how many don't learn how. It makes working with Alpha a joy most times whereas I can completely understand how frustrating it must be to not be able to find what is needed.

What many will find more difficult is finding help with the web side due mainly in that it is relatively new and so not as much info on the board and other resources.

Another way to compensate for the help is to create your own help file of sorts....code snippets, links, sample databases with solutions, etc. My desktop help has about 1000 or so code snippets and over 200 sample/example databases from which to get code or methodology from. My web side help however only has maybe 150 code snippets and maybe 20 samples.


You may ask, and truthfully I couldn't agree more, that why the hey we should have to do this! Well, Alpha's resources are spent it seems on product improvement and not documentation--and it seems like it is a choice they had to make---and if time spent on documentation is time that detrimentally takes away from improvements I guess I prefer their decision. So we do as we must to come up with a way around it....which I believe I have.

[Steve Wood]

Robert, your concerns are brought up every so often, including predictions of disaster if the Help is not improved. But it just doesn't happen, they continue to shine regardless. The Help is being incrmentally improved, not fast enough and not 'tight' enough, but moving forward. The current information is scattered in different areas, and the official Help is a merge of outdated information & models, and recent additions. I'm afraid the best source of information is in my head, or the collective heads of those on the forum, and those other power users who arn't.

Another source is my free Friday webinar (noon Pacific), every Friday for four years now.

[Peter.Greulich]

Sadly the documentation remains a hodgepodge of the old, the new, the disjointed and the obsolete. Videos are the quick fix for Alpha crack addicts (includes me). The release notes are worth their weight in diamonds, but are chronological, not categorized. The WiKi is WicKed and the old online help file is nice, but getting long on the tooth. In Alpha-Land, lonely are the brave. It is only this message board that keeps the whole thing working. Without that, we'd be dead in the water.

[SNusa]

Sadly the documentation remains a hodgepodge of the old, the new, the disjointed and the obsolete. Videos are the quick fix for Alpha crack addicts (includes me). The release notes are worth their weight in diamonds, but are chronological, not categorized. The WiKi is WicKed and the old online help file is nice, but getting long on the tooth. In Alpha-Land, lonely are the brave. It is only this message board that keeps the whole thing working. Without that, we'd be dead in the water.

Well put. The most frustrating thing with search is that when I need to find something specific, I don't even bother searching in the wiki directly. I resolve to searching the wiki by going to google first.... . Their search finds things in the wiki much better than the wiki search finds things in the wiki..... What bugs me the most is that I think Alpha has in some senses lost touch with their roots.

As indicated previously, this is what concerns me the most:
What I've noticed recently from Alpha, is that all these new features are being added to a5 at the expense of making it easier to use, particularly for new users. (Trivial to a highly experienced user, POSSIBLY. But everyone is a new user sometime.) They are also not overly (very) concerned with existing and features in the gui that may not be working "quite right." (Some of their reasoning is logical with all the new UI enhancements replacing older stuff, and the efforts required to get v11 out.) Regardless, overall this is very alarming. Especially since the company (Alpha) want their product to be used by new users.....

I had recommended two suggestions which would have made the GUI much easier for beginners to learn.

1.) A go-back button when searching for Action-Scripts. (Because once you pick the wrong one, you have to start searching from scratch each time.)

2.) Access to the rich set of features (like the Xbasic exlorer) for individual Action Scripts that are converted to Xbasic. IMHO This is important for users at any experience level.....

Sure, I know the first suggestion is trivial for the "professional" a5 users. But the second one? Tell me you wouldn't ever want the ease and functionality of quickly and correctly (the first time) editing a converted action script by dragging and dropping code from the xbasic explorer.....

All these rich tool sets, and they are not always accessible...... (For all the right reasons... I was literally amazed I couldn't quickly generate script via AS, convert a copy to inline Xbasic, and then use these GUI tools to modify and enhance it....) The response from Alpha made me think: Hmmmm..... Is action scripting going away? Are we not supposed to use it any more? Take things like that away, and you're back to MS Dev Studio with VB..... NO THANKS!

~Responses in both instances were "~this is not really important." (Here I'm thinking "not important to who" and "Alpha is not seeing the bigger picture.") Make it easier for new users to learn to first walk, and then run.... And you'll end up with a lot more users / customers....

As a beginner, these suggestions would have been very helpful....
And even now, the second suggestion (access to the Xbasic Explroer to converted in-line Xbasic code) would facilitate editing (tweaking) action scripts that are converted to in-line Xbasic code.

I'm now at the level where I can write some code, but I'd much prefer letting a5 do the heavy lifting first. And that's why I have (nor have ever really had) interest in using MS Visual Dev etc.......... Am I not the kind of user that Alpha is trying to attract? Sometimes I think not.

[SNusa]

..... as a result of recent feedback from bug reports and suggestions.

(I was cut off from editing prior post #6 above.)

[Doug Page]

The cost of documentation for a complex product such as Alpha is high. If Alpha were to include documentation with their product the prices would significantly increase. In my mind, that is where products such as the Liberty manuals come into play. If you want documentation laid out in an organized and educational structure, I find that these manuals are worth their weight in gold. If you want(need) them, you pay the price. If you like to try and learn on your own, then there is plentiful info out there for one to search. I think this is a great option as people can pay for the help if needed or just pay for that part which they want or nothing at all. Check out www.libertymanuals.com . They are well worth the price for someone starting out and are available in electronic format for easy searching. I have found them invaluable as well as the book XBasic for Everyone. The video courses available by Steve Workings are also a great way to get started.

I know many people do not like that they have to pay extra to learn how to use a product. But I think that this is just the way things are going nowadays as everyone's level of expertise is vastly different from the next. Once you have learned from any of the above sources, you probably won't be upgrading to the next version except for maybe an updated version of the functions handbook.

[DaveM]

Hey,

I still have several 40.00(some a lot more) books sitting on the shelf pertaining to VB. That is not to mention c, c++, etc. I paid plenty for the rights to the program and the help is "OK", but not sufficient for what I needed at the time. I think most of us have those.

Alpha once came with a set of books as a standard(somewhere about 1990) and then came with the help system on the computer. Things were not as fast then as they are now in progression. With new functions almost daily, it would be an enormous cost just to keep this one help file up to date.

I DO think they could do a bit better, but at what cost of developement.

It has never ceased to amaze me at newer people to Alpha coming up with the same problem: "The lack of help". That says something though.

This board was put up here in part to take care of that. It never ends that someone asks about something that is in plain sight to them, easily searched in the help, or availeable by searcing here. We all have to learn though.

I have recieved help here a lot and hope I have helped others at least half as much.

[DaveM]

By the way: search in the WIKI sucks!!!

[SNusa]

By the way: search in the WIKI sucks!!!

"Blatant, but said well." That's the "root" of my gripes regarding documentation....... "If I can't find it in the local .chm file, I may not be able to find it at all." ~Exactly why this forum tends to become clogged with fundamental questions.

Doug Page (above) posted the following:

"I know many people do not like that they have to pay extra to learn how to use a product."

Very true! SO CHARGE EXTRA - BUT HAVE IT AVAILABLE FROM "THE SOURCE." I would expect to pay for these extras. Years ago, I bought a "6-pack" of spiral bound a5 "learning aids" which are somewhat outdated now...... The point is, they were available. Available AND PRODUCED BY ALPHA...... And being in spiral bound print, I could page through them whether I was sitting behind a computer, or in the bathroom!

On a related note: Paper printed material (IMHO) is a little like object oriented programming. Once you know it's there, "it's easy to find and act on it." With online help, you don'g the the visual clues to help you navigate... (Instead you get info overload, just like the MS search engine ads depict)......

And since Alpha produces the software, they know best how it works internally. So who better to produce documentation..... And if they can't do it themselves (for any reason) can anyone else really do a thorough job on their behalf?

I have a friend who indirectly worked for MS. (Apparently, they (MS) subs a lot of their documentation work out to third party "business partners") At one point, (several years ago) he was given the task to document changes (produce the white papers) between two major versions of a "large MS product." (an industrial product) The funny thing is that he had never even been exposed to the previous version.... (True story everyone, and the people who assigned this task to him were aware of this!) Now how can you be expected to accurately document changes and provide relevant upgrade info between two major versions when you have zero experience with the previous one? (I will admit, I consider my friend to be a borderline "genius" but still)...

"Is it a bug, or just bad documentation?" In the case above, I don't even think my friend would even have known. And he produced the documents. I'm sure there is a lot of good 3'rd party documentation out there. ~ "I'm just trying to make a point."

And if accurate documentation does not closely parallel a product (regardless of how good it is) the results are very frustrating (at the very least) for new users especially.

[DaveM]

And since Alpha produces the software, they know best how it works internally. So who better to produce documentation..... And if they can't do it themselves (for any reason) can anyone else really do a thorough job on their behalf?

For years now, I have seen people here come up with ways to do things that I am sure alpha had no idea their creation could accomplish. There are also people on here that have a pretty darned good idea what is under the hood at alpha. Agreed, that is changing rapidly(under the hood), but not so much in some ways.

Alpha really is c++ without the straight to it functions(mostly). Alpha writes their functions to make use of the c++ functions and some other add ons they use. VB does real similar. Then you have stuff like access which seems to be one more place removed using VB for which is based on c++(I think).

We can use c++ and go buy the same or similar addons. of course, it would cost us much more money and time doing it that way.

Not sure where it is going, but I am sure they won't change what they are doing real soon. It won't change until NEW customer sales begin to wane.

My opinions and thoughts!

[SNusa]

Alpha really is c++ without the straight to it functions(mostly). Alpha writes their functions to make use of the c++ functions and some other add ons they use. VB does real similar. Then you have stuff like access which seems to be one more place removed using VB for which is based on c++(I think).

You raise an very interesting subject / question... What's the scoop about the two builds. (One I understand is based on c++ (1200 build) and the other is based on .NET (1600 build).

I had to "revert" back to the 1200 build because I encountered things that just didn't work properly within the a5 gui. (a5 itself invoked it's own debugger in these instances)

ALSO....

For years now, I have seen people here come up with ways to do things that I am sure alpha had no idea their creation could accomplish. There are also people on here that have a pretty darned good idea what is under the hood at alpha. Agreed, that is changing rapidly(under the hood), but not so much in some ways.

This raises another potential for problems.... I would think there would be significant risks involved with designing applications that "exploit" undocumented tricks and tips.... (What happens when new versions of a5 no longer perform these tricks as expected? Applications are more prone to "break", right?)

[DaveM]

Typically, Alpha has given us a VERY good fall back. In other words, if it worked in v5, it will work in v10.5(most always). I think most of us will say they have been very good at supporting their past.

As far as dot net, I believe that is an add on and not a complete rewrite. If it were a rewrite, it would have LOTS and LOTS of bugs(that is human) and I am not seeing that either here on the board or in my coding.

Alpha has changed the way we do dome things and as far as I can see, it is for the better. I have worked in a lot of environments and Alpha has and is the best so far. Access, VB, Clipper, DBase, Pascal, C, C++, filemaker + pro, basic, just to name a few. Those do not include HTML(not a language), and all the web languages. I have been there through MS dos, IBM dos, Punch cards, windows in all versions so far, and some stuff I was not sure what it was like an atari home computer and a Wang Machine.

How Many remember Quatro Pro??

Let me state: I derive NO income or guidance from alpha. I use the product and pay for that right just like everyone else. I am too strong headed to work in their type scenario.

[MikeC]

This raises another potential for problems.... I would think there would be significant risks involved with designing applications that "exploit" undocumented tricks and tips.... (What happens when new versions of a5 no longer perform these tricks as expected? Applications are more prone to "break", right?)

That is why if an undocumented feature/function or even a glitch in something can be used, then only count on it working for the version in which you initially use it---you would have to test it out in future versions.

[Steve Wood]

As a comparison, I have never had one thing go haywire upgrading to a new version. I am running three V9 applications on a V10 WAS. I did have to update the code on any existing V9 A5W page to take advantage of AJAX Grids, but that's all. "Not documented" does not mean not official; but I mean I don't think the engineers go looking to see if something is documented or not, they just bring everything forward to the new version. That said, methods and functions do need to be retired. I am guessing some of the a5ws_ functions might be retired in V11, but that eventuality was discussed back in late V9. I also ran my nastiest V10 applications (full of tricks) through V11 beta and they came out with flying colors.

[SNusa]

How Many remember Quatro Pro??

"A blast from the past"... That was the preferred spreadsheet (IMHO)....... I was even a victim of DOS 4.0, where one business computer "chewed itself to oblivion" and left me installing an older copy of DOS 3.x..... No punch cards, just missed that one. But I started with Apple Basic on an Apple II when that first came out... (1979?) Actually, having dug into Xbasic in a5, I knid of fee like I'm in a "go-back" machine (with regards to using a5 relative to my old memories of Apple Basic). ~A go-back machine on a "super-steroid cocktail mix." Not surprisingly, I actually like it.....

Typically, Alpha has given us a VERY good fall back. In other words, if it worked in v5, it will work in v10.5(most always). I think most of us will say they have been very good at supporting their past.

Looking at past documentation (directly from a5 when they used to produce spiral bound training media) they frequently noted their examples as "...in v6 and above, do it this way instead." That always led me to believe the old code examples would break in the new version.... Was I wrong in thinking that? (Would the older code have still worked? Were the new examples just easier ways of doing things?)

Also: Dave, are you presently using the 1600 build? Editing styles & style sheets was where I was experiencing "a5 crashes", invoking the a5 debugger (on it's own code)..... That's specifically why I went back to the 1200 builds. I made a logical assumption that: "If I was experiencing problems here, I would most likely experience other unexpected problems elsewhere too."

[Steve Workings]

I look at A5 the same way I look at my workshop when I walk in. A lot of good tools that allow me to create whatever I want. Last week I decided to install a solar-powered light in a decorative bird house. I'm sure the manufacturer of the drill, sealant and even the solar light maker never thought I'd do this so I didn't expect to find any set of instructions from any of them on how to do this. Now if you'll look in the woodworking world, there are tens of thousands of how-to books, but I'll still bet you'd be pressed to find this one.

Same with A5 - there are just so many things we can do with it.

That said, and as someone who is very very interested in instruction I think that more "how-to" suggestions, more "here's how you do this" tutorials and such will go a long way. We can look to Alpha Software for some of this, but as the user base gets larger I also believe that independent developers and other third parties will find it worthwhile to start selling some of these additional tools/facilities/books. I know I've got my toe in the water on this with a couple of "How to do X", and it buys a nice meal now and then, but as time goes on, I think there will be market for more that does not have to come from Alpha Software.

My woodworking shop has a shelf for the "Shop Notes" and "Fine Woodworking" magazines I've subscribed to for years. I get a lot of good ideas from them even if I don't try to duplicate every project that's published. Once upon a time there was a small publication for Alpha users called "Alpha Forum" (Yes I have them all -- had to just look to remember the name). It would be nice to have a web-based site "Alpha Notes" that was supported by subscription and/or individual sales. Alpha Software does a lot, but as a free-market capitalist I'm thinking the time is coming when there would be enough support for something like this.

I know, too, that IADN is working to provide some of this kind of thing for its members, but I also think there's room for this kind of material for a more general audience.

Jus' thinking out loud here.

[DaveM]

Also: Dave, are you presently using the 1600 build? Editing styles & style sheets was where I was experiencing "a5 crashes", invoking the a5 debugger (on it's own code)..... That's specifically why I went back to the 1200 builds. I made a logical assumption that: "If I was experiencing problems here, I would most likely experience other unexpected problems elsewhere too."

Whatever is in the latest build - I am there!

I do not do much alpha web based yet due to a backlog in my desktop work. It may be another year before I can spend quality time on the alpha web. I make websites(not alpha) and small(mostly) desktop apps. The websites I make(for now) do not require database.

Most of my apps are written and then sold as opposed to the sold by order and then make them. I had rather spend a few(hundred) hours making an app and try to sell it a thousand times than to spend a few hours trying to make a custom app. Economics! I do take a small job occassionally.

Unlike others, I am not in the training business. I will try to help out here though and when I do, I try to guide the user to solve the proble rather than just give the answer so they will learn. Same as I did with race car setups.

How does the saying go? "Feed a person for a year or teach the person to grow the food and feed him for a lifetime".

[SNusa]

Whatever is in the latest build - I am there!

Makes sense, except: There are two separate parallel builds of a5 (supposedly the same, but not really....) The 1200 build is based on C++, (an older version of visual studio) and the 1600 build is based on .NET....... (visual studio 10 build) ~ This "new option" only appears if you select alternate download site. Months ago, it was a big deal. But unless you look for it, you won't know it's even there..... "What's up with that?"

[DaveM]

when I went to 10.5 the update included .net and dhtml update - not sure what relevance that has. The size of the downloads went way up to about 100 meg for the full version.

I would be confused if there were 2 versions of the same thing.
I just downloaded the latest and greatest from both download sites and got 2 files that are both 47,778 in size????

I did see what you were referring to in the previous updates. The regular one is smaller than the vs10 version. I don't know why. I am obviosly not on the vs10. Or maybe that one includes vs10 runtime and the other does not??
NOT SURE.

[SNusa]

when I went to 10.5 the update included .net and dhtml update - not sure what relevance that has. The size of the downloads went way up to about 100 meg for the full version.

I would be confused if there were 2 versions of the same thing.
I just downloaded the latest and greatest from both download sites and got 2 files that are both 47,778 in size????

I did see what you were referring to in the previous updates. The regular one is smaller than the vs10 version. I don't know why. I am obviosly not on the vs10. Or maybe that one includes vs10 runtime and the other does not??
NOT SURE.

Hi Dave;
Both updates are for the current developer version.

If you go to the alternate download site, and scroll to the bottom of the page, you will see what I mean.....
(this new optional build is still available, but not by default.)

[DaveM]

May I suggest to call alpha and ask? I have sent an email. Maybe they will answer that.

[Peter.Greulich]

...I also ran my nastiest V10 applications (full of tricks) through V11 beta and they came out with flying colors.

Hhhmmm... so what can you tell us about v11 beta?

[SNusa]

May I suggest to call alpha and ask? I have sent an email. Maybe they will answer that.

I think I'll just wait to hear back here from you.... Please let me know (PM me) if / when you receive a reply...
(I think Selwyn is tired of me submitting valid bugs! ~ "I'm beginning to worry I'll get flagged as a spammer." ~LMAO)

I wouldn't be so "light hearted" in the previous statement, if it were not for the fact that I actually enjoy working within a5!
(I must be "sick & twisted", right? Still, it's a pretty nifty RAD programming tool!)