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new ..calendar component in v11

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    Re: new ..calendar component in v11

    Really, We have never even gotten multi license pricing from Alpha in regards to WAS. Maybe we can get that beast tamed first. I highly doubt that someone would discount there product from 499 to 50. If they do... we will be screwed when they are out of business.
    Chad Brown

    Comment


      Re: new ..calendar component in v11

      Well honestly I am just spit-balling ideas here. It wouldn't need to be $50, plus I didn't put an initial price in there for the developer license. Obviously the lower that is, the higher each license would be. (Again spit-balling.) If somebody were to pay $1,750 simply for the developer license, then I would think they would be able to survive with that, and then the developer begins to get ahead on the 4th, and they keep getting more an more fees from each succeeding domain in addition to the initial fee. Also if they get a few developers working with that license, those fees can add up quite nicely for them. (Hey if Angry Birds grosses half a billion off of 99� downloads...)

      I do think there could be a way everyone comes together so that many if not most people are happy with something. Already we have found that there is a reduced price for the domain wide license. While that is good for some here, there are different issues for different people. Some people don't need the domain wide option, so there is no real discount for them, while at the other end of the spectrum we have people developing multiple sites finding the pricing to be out of their range.

      They do say to contact them for the volume licenses, but I get the feeling most people are not going to do that assuming they are already out of their price range.

      Comment


        Re: new ..calendar component in v11

        Hi Wendy,

        I am not sure what you charge a builder per month, but I put together a quick "throughput worksheet" (From Eli Goldratt's - "the goal" and "its not luck" fame), for your business model. There are some things that can be done to make this a more profitable operation.

        Assuming that the calendar module is a make or break feature of your market offering, and I did not add in the cost of your developer license as you all ready own as this would just muddy the waters.

        Scenario one: An investment of 399 + 499 for the WAS and the Web2Cal license as the investment cost for each builder site. Each builder also has their own virtual server at $50 per month. You also now have 30 servers to manage. But I will only include the salary for one customer support/sales engineer at $45k per yer.

        Scenario two: Consolidate the running of your builder sites onto two dedicated hosting servers - $350 per month per server. Consolidate your WAS purchases to 2 per server, and your Web2Cal license to a sub-domain license for $699. Using Apache Web server you direct traffic on a round robin robin approach, or assign builders to one of the four servers. Of course you will design your site to segment builders based off of logins, or a page variables. To give the builders a sense of domain security you will run your site within an iFrame on their site.

        Another assumptions is the added cost of making your site multi-builder friendly. I did not include this. But lets just assume this is in your scope of programming skills.

        Most people do not care what the URL says - as long as the content is clear and represents the builder. You have logos and branding that clearly support your customer.

        costjustification.jpg

        As you can see one the second scenario has a far greater profit potential and makes the investment of 699 easy. However, if a builder demands his own server, and his own domain, then their is also a case for larger monthly fee, and a setup and customization fee that could easily be double your setup costs of licenses, and the time of your development staff to setup a custom site.

        So now you have two products that you can effectively offer your clients.

        Also, why are you limiting this to just 30 local developers?

        Also, what is the justification for the calendar component for your product offering? Based off of what I see at your site and having worked for custom home builders for many years as a consultant I do not get the business need for a calendaring solution.

        Comment


          Re: new ..calendar component in v11

          Michael,

          I'm not limiting myself to 30. I needed a number to use for my math, and that's what we've determined is most likely in the first 18-24 months. I have 40 or so builders on subscription, have no idea if I'll try to sell this beyond that group, and it's not likely that all 40 will sign up.

          Because the first round will be their marketing web sites at an initial cost. We'll add their admin end as a second round, with it's own cost. We will be hosting, so not a separate VPS per, but because these are their public address, at the moment we think they have to be each their own domain name - not positive yet though. We also think multi-tenant, but haven't yet figured out if we can do multi-tenant and still have each have their own domain name. It could turn out that we need to choose or even have two offerings at two different prices.

          Anything with iframes is out because the Google bots don't look inside iframes. If the SEO on these is so bad that somebody can't even search for "Joe Builder" and find our Joe Builder, well, that will be a bad thing.

          My pricing research tells me I'll be competing with anywhere from $800 to $1500 for the public web site. I have several builders who've already taken the bait and used the $800 competition folks, and are disappointed. So we'll ignore that and go to somewhere between $1200 and $1500 initial, plus a monthly that covers hosting, maintenance, etc. For the second round there's a group called Builder Trends that has a pretty darned compelling builder admin offering at $1500 initial, plus a monthly maintenance that's higher than at least 75% of my guys would swallow ($150). What my guys need is what they need, not more. Only one of them has signed up for Builder Trend. Most of them need the admin end, but don't necessarily know it yet. They'll know it when they see it and I start my sales efforts in earnest. So, on our admin end we'll be at around $1000 initial plus some bump in the monthly. And you're correct, a calendar is not essential for that. If I just say nothing at all, I doubt I'll get a single "what, no calendar?".

          So, without a pricing model for the calendar that wouldn't have them saying to me "you're kidding, right?", calendar sales are off the table for all concerned. That could change - they could someday start wanting a calendar, but I doubt the math will. My target audience will almost certainly always be builders, and 90% of them are sole proprietors or 1 person corporations who do one house at a time and keep a very sharp eye on their money, because they have to. Whatever they pay me for this has to come out of what they can make on what they build. The economics of home construction are all tied up with financing and the home value appraisal system upon which the financing relies, etc. Everything they pay out has to come out of that pie, and they won't do it if there isn't sufficient benefit, because they're not idiots! 90% of them have survived this long without having a web site at all. (A couple of my potentials do have web sites, but are just very unhappy with them, primarily because they're a PITA to update - which will be my claim to fame when we're done)

          That whole money pie model is very easy to discern when you look at home construction, where the home buyer literally cannot simply pay more because they think something is worth more. That's why you don't see a whole lot of variation in how elaborately homes are trimmed out, or even in their size, in a given area. Financing appraises with "comps", which is what the neighbor's houses are worth. But, if you look more closely at nearly every economic sector in the entire universe, you will find similar pressures. If there isn't a bank appraiser, there's simple competition and a limited amount of money in people's and business's pockets. That's why I say it almost doesn't matter what you think something is worth, if you're in business as opposed to a wealthy hobbyist. I have my eye on some very cool 3D structural design software that costs $2800. I'm in the sector that took the biggest hit in this euphemistically titled "recession". That stuff is absolutely 100% worth it - it will improve my product and save me time. And yet I've been looking at it and wanting it for 3 years now, haven't pulled the trigger yet - because my boring old 2D calc software gets the job done - and because there wasn't $2800 in the pie. (We're just now getting to where I dare, and they've agreed to spread it out over a year - maybe, hmmmm - winter's coming, our traditional down cycle here in the cold north....) - and that's the thinking all the end client's will be doing - my clients, everybody's clients. They may even say up front "yes", and then it will be a "no" before they sign on the dotted line, if the cost is too high.

          So this is the sandbox in which I must play. My math certainly doesn't represent everybody's math. If your projects are primarily large, maybe you're working on them for many months each - then the calendar as currently priced might work for you. I think my math will be dead nuts on for those who do many small projects instead of a few larger ones. But, I have no idea how many A5 owners fall into each of these categories (or, of course, somewhere in between). I haven't done the math on where it starts to make sense at the current prices. Is it a $10k application? $5k? $20k? I don't know. So, this is just my decision and why. I feel disappointed, but I'm not mad and I don't feel mislead. "It is what it is".

          I also don't seriously expect there to be a change in their pricing to the extent I would need. But with the number of phone calls and emails I've received from others with similar concerns, I thought that making the case here publicly might at least have them give it hard thought (and yes, I did speak w/Web2Cal on the phone, at first had some hope, until I realized the price breaks he was talking about didn't come into play until domain # 16) - and that there might be some benefit to putting the cost of various parts in perspective, perhaps food for thought in the event A5 is looking at other add-ons that also would either have third party licensing or where A5 is considering expanding their own add-on offerings with a per-domain pricing model at these price levels. There's a point where development efforts fail to realize their full return on investment, because they sell X at $500 instead of X times 500 at $50. If X is one, that's $500 vs $25,000.... At $500, you sell to only those for whom it's absolutely essential. If the widget is very cool but not essential, at $50, it's almost a "why not". And, of course, a range in between - I just used $500 and $50 because they're easy math. I guess that may be the bigger point of my flogging this poor horse. If I understand things correctly, this model of offering an integrated component that has third party licensing is a first for A5. It may very well be too late to turn this boat. But there might just be other boats coming and if I found myself locked out of a whole lot of cool new toys, I would start to regret my initial investment of time and money in A5 and would stop upgrading. Version 11 is good enough for me and could very well be good enough for a very long time. I'm a habitual upgrader, but that doesn't have to be.

          I know that if my opinion were sought on cost of future features, I would not simply say the lowest number. I would be honest about relative value, and I think most A5 users would be also. Everybody here "gets it" that A5 is in business and has to make money - and that we don't get great new features if there isn't the money to pay all those most excellent developers. I would have perked right up at the idea of offering my builders a cool calendar. I would not have choked on third party licensing, or even on it being per domain - and I wouldn't even have said $50 per domain as the absolute maximum. I would have done the math as I've done and said $150 max if it was a very good calendar with excellent usability, $50-$75 if it's less compelling. (And I don't think a company like Web2Cal would go out of business at those prices - there's still the up front "developer" license from them, at their current prices - and we're still talking about them doing the development effort once and then either multiplying a high number by fewer sales or a lower number by more sales.) On other future add-ons I'd run the same drill in my head. Does it provide value or fill a need? Even if it does, will my clients understand and value that? Where does the money come from to pay for it (the end customer, the developer's client)? Will the add-on help generate extra revenue for the end client that will then have them see it as worth it? If so, how much? Are there competing products, and what do they cost? Then we do the math.

          OK, man, this poor horse is going to have a heart attack! I started off to answer Michael questions and before I knew it I'd written a novel! And, I think this is the first time I've realized the true relevance of the conversation is about the pricing of add-ons and third party licensing in general. I think an honest discussion about that would help A5 make decisions without setting off a ruckus, and would help A5 users feel heard and consulted. ... stepping off the soap box now... ;-) Really. No really, that it. No wait, one more thing. I'm kidding. Bye y'all!
          Last edited by WendyWelton; 11-09-2011, 10:34 AM.
          Wendy Welton
          Architect
          past & future Alphaholic - deliberately falling off the wagon!

          http://www.artformhomeplans.com/

          Comment


            Re: new ..calendar component in v11

            Originally posted by chadbrown View Post
            Really, We have never even gotten multi license pricing from Alpha in regards to WAS. Maybe we can get that beast tamed first. I highly doubt that someone would discount there product from 499 to 50. If they do... we will be screwed when they are out of business.
            Richard Rabins
            Co Chairman
            Alpha Software

            Comment


              Re: new ..calendar component in v11

              Chad

              If people want multiple unit app server pricing all you have to do is email [email protected]
              Thanks
              Richard Rabins
              Co Chairman
              Alpha Software

              Comment


                Re: new ..calendar component in v11

                New pricing options for 3rd party calendar for use with v11 calendar component

                http://web2cal.com/index.php?option=...&category_id=1
                Richard Rabins
                Co Chairman
                Alpha Software

                Comment


                  Re: new ..calendar component in v11

                  Since I am not in the market for a WEB calendar, I will not comment on the NEW(?) pricing plan, but.........
                  Dave Mason
                  [email protected]
                  Skype is dave.mason46

                  Comment


                    Re: new ..calendar component in v11

                    Great, I will do that.
                    Chad Brown

                    Comment


                      Re: new ..calendar component in v11

                      I got the WAS pricing in my analysis from my sales guy, Dave. I'm also not one of those who feel mislead, because I always email or call my sales guy. Because I always deal with the same guy, he knows my situation and has more than once given me good advice on the relative benefit to me of a feature pack or something. I don't remember how I ended up with one sales guy and his direct email, but I don't think it's something special just reserved for PITA people like me! I think you can just get a name and try to stick to the same person - and I recommend that. It also helps immensely when the various promotions and packages and 5 billion different ways to buy things are flying by. I haven't opted out of the promotional emails because they sometimes have information in them that's useful. But man, they sure will make your head spin! Dave makes my head stop spinning. If I want to know, I just email him.
                      Wendy Welton
                      Architect
                      past & future Alphaholic - deliberately falling off the wagon!

                      http://www.artformhomeplans.com/

                      Comment


                        Re: new ..calendar component in v11

                        You can find an alternative in the link below
                        Cheers
                        Mauricio

                        Comment


                          Re: new ..calendar component in v11

                          Wendy if your app was multi-tenanted you would have just one licence - my view it's the only way to go for all development where there are expansion opportunities or possibilities for an app. You may want to consider it. Never to late. Best regards, you have done well in your development congrats. Pete.
                          Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
                          Albert Einstein, (attributed)
                          US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)

                          Comment


                            Re: new ..calendar component in v11

                            See the http://msgboard.alphasoftware.com/al...ndar-Component for a video of a custom component that I've developed and have available for beta testing.
                            Last edited by Lenny Forziati; 11-28-2011, 01:46 PM. Reason: added link to actual thread
                            Jim Coltz
                            Alpha Custom Database Solutions, LLC
                            A5CustomSolutions.com
                            [email protected]

                            Comment

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