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Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another PC...

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    Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

    Originally posted by Selwyn Rabins View Post
    creating a custom menu is working now. it was broken for about 5 days and we are sorry about that. however, all that you had to do was roll back to a previous update. all previous updates are available from the downloads page.
    This is obviously a frequently overlooked and under-utilized "band-aid" to the problem. This being said, how is one to know "which and what update breaks what?" (Since there is no way for the general user base to gain insight as to exactly what problems are created with each particular update!) Also, due to the complexity of a5, I suspect many users (developers / end users too) encounter "broken code" long after it was actually broken by an update..... So it can also be difficult to know exactly which version you need to rollback to! (And rolling back can cause problems with new databases failing too.)

    IMHO, the smart solution (short of not releasing new code that breaks old code) would be to have a user supported bug submission (and search) system in place, instead of sending bugs in by email.....

    If implemented properly:
    1. Users could search for existing issues, versions, resolutions, workarounds etc....
    2. We could classify, submit (with examples) and rate bug severity directly to a "bug tracker" service.
      (instead of sending an email to one recipient)
    3. Alpha could then validate/confirm the reported bugs, and add support/versioning/fix info.
    4. This would create a quick perspective of bug importance via frequency of submissions too!



    I think this would solve a lot of PR issues, increase user confidence, while making it much easier for Alpha to both classify & respond to the important issues. (And, without all the individual email correspondence, I think it would make it a lot easier on Alpha's administrative side of things too!) If you really think about it, the entire update cycle (presently in use by Alpha) without any user accessible bug tracking knowledge-base whatsoever makes for a really poor combination......

    Here's a huge list of them, some of which are even free...... (Pick one that "fits" and run with it!):
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...em_integration


    Actually..... Why doesn't Alpha just build their own custom web bug service with A5?
    (A couple of weeks and they could have something of their own up and running!)

    The company (Alpha) is "great."
    The program (a5) is "fun."
    The forum is "invaluable."
    The wiki is "usable."
    The wishlist is "questionable."
    ...But the whole update & bug tracking process is "lacking." *

    *Although I do know that Selwyn & customer service work very diligently to provide the best support possible given the current methods in place!
    Last edited by SNusa; 03-14-2012, 01:27 AM.
    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

    Comment


      Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

      I don't know how many developers - Alpha5 Engine developers and application developers - actually go through really detailed Regression Testing.
      In my world, where some (not built using Alpha unfortunately) systems could endanger people if they don't work properly, regression testing is a major part of the process.
      To establish backwards compatability, we developed what we called Golden Scripts. These scripts acted like a matrix and were run sequentially with increasing complexity being applied to each run.
      It was absolutely no good testing the part of the application which was new or where a workaround had now been repaired. The user base had to have confidence in the software they were using.

      Just in case anyone is thinking that the application was a simple one, it comprised;
      Infopath
      SQL Server
      SSRS
      Business Objects
      Sharepoint
      as well as running on a load balanced server farm managed by IBM.

      The Golden Scripts proved that the system worked as intended, however people being people, there were always issues.
      My job was to catch the issues and provide education, a workaround, or investigate a new feature request.

      Where there was a workaround, I posted this on the Intranet and that was the first place (eventually) that users went to if they encountered what they thought of as a problem.

      I'm with Robert on the need for some form of information mechanism.

      In the Custom Menu case, it would have saved time for the user, if the user had been able to look at the Issues being Worked On list.
      They could have put the issue to one side in the knowledge that it would be repaired and got on with whatever else they were doing.
      A lot of us keep slugging away thinking it's us that's doing it wrong because we don't want to upset the apple cart.
      And as for responses to bug e-mail, it's not good. I'd be happy to receive a simple "No it's not a bug. RTFM!"
      See our Hybrid Option here;
      https://hybridapps.example-software.com/


      Apologies to anyone I haven't managed to upset yet.
      You are held in a queue and I will get to you soon.

      Comment


        Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

        Originally posted by Ted Giles View Post
        I'm with Robert on the need for some form of information mechanism..... A lot of us keep slugging away thinking it's us that's doing it wrong because we don't want to upset the apple cart. And as for responses to bug e-mail, it's not good. I'd be happy to receive a simple "No it's not a bug. RTFM!"
        Bingo! ~ Having recently dug into the depths of a5 desktop and X-basic, I can't begin to tell you how many times I saw things that baffled me, only to find they were in fact bugs I was struggling with. I wasted countless time trying to establish the difference between real bugs, and a lack of experience. Nearly 100% of the time, I eventually ended up reporting legitimate bug which was quickly addressed. (with the exception of one long time major embedded browse bug which was just fixed about a week ago) ~ Nevertheless, without having access to any bug tracking mechanism, the learning frustrations level was unnecessarily enhanced.

        I don't know how companies like MS actually handle these things like routine "intra-version" updates to development software... Even so, along with MSDN and a "KB# knowledge base", they (MS) do/does offer a subscription to TechNet, which I presume may encompass an exposed bug tracking mechanism...... (I choose not to use MS stuff with exception of the OS and that's why I'm here and not there.)

        Case in point: With a current subscription in hand, and a new one (I just pre-purchased for v12), I'm just now apprehensively installing v11 for the first time..... Unfortunately, I 've resolved to leaving the bug catching to others (hopefully).


        Honestly, at $1000++ for "annual" subscriptions, there most certainly should be a dedicated bug tracking & support tool in place! And while I'm using the "entrepreneurial business side of my brain", I'll also add the following thought: The current pricing has actually got me "questioning" my prior decision to not use Dev.Studio. But this is a whole different issue in itself. At the very least, this subscription pricing has "taken the wind out of my sails.") Irrespective, I can't imagine that Dev. Studio developers have an experience like this regarding bug fixes and updates..... Do they?

        Come to think of it: I recall being sold the original subscription (prepaid in full) last winter for an introductory special price of (won't list it here) US. I was told (over the phone, by Andrew G. as I recall without checking my emails) that although there was nothing concrete in place regarding future pricing.... "There would be special discounts and incentives for subscription renewals." What happened (instead) is: I became entangled in renewing the subscription price roughly 6 months earlier than originally expected, in order to receive the best renewal deal/price to be offered! On top of this, given the fact that my subscription renewal price actually increased to (again, won't list it here), I feel I was somewhat misled (to put it nicely) by Alpha.

        ~ I'd love to get a response from Alpha on this.......
        Last edited by SNusa; 03-14-2012, 09:25 AM.
        Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
        It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
        RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

        Comment


          Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

          In response to the latest posts, I agree for the most part....except for the statement
          found out that most of thread posts are problems experienced by users
          which sounds like it is something that is totally unexpected!! A main purpose of this message board is to present problems! That most of the threads are about problems makes perfect sense to me and so this aspect is something I believe should not even be considered when evaluating Alpha.
          Mike
          __________________________________________
          It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know.
          It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
          Henry David Thoreau
          __________________________________________



          Comment


            Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

            Mike, I think the comment was meant to reflect the true problems and possibly Bugs.

            Recently Ira posted a comment regarding a Bug, and he got a quick reply. The reason for the quick turnaround I suspect it that he is one of the more experienced users and will have thoroughly tested his hypothesis before posting a Bug. Personally I take the product as it is and work around things - as I bet most Alpha users do if they haven't got the latest version and the Bug fix for say 10.5 is closed.

            Robert seems to enjoy delving into the Xbasic code to understand it. That's where he finds his Bugs.
            New users just get frustrated because they cannot do something. This is more often than not down to, a) too much Access exposure and b), not enough Alpha exposure.

            A few weeks back, for the first time ever, I blocked a subscriber. Just had enough. No reciprocated help, just question after question and moan after moan.
            If I wanted that, I'd go back to my job as Charman of the Council!
            See our Hybrid Option here;
            https://hybridapps.example-software.com/


            Apologies to anyone I haven't managed to upset yet.
            You are held in a queue and I will get to you soon.

            Comment


              Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

              Hi Ted,

              Originally posted by Ted Giles View Post
              Recently Ira posted a comment regarding a Bug, and he got a quick reply. The reason for the quick turnaround I suspect it that he is one of the more experienced users and will have thoroughly tested his hypothesis before posting a Bug. Personally I take the product as it is and work around things - as I bet most Alpha users do if they haven't got the latest version and the Bug fix for say 10.5 is closed.
              When I sent Alpha my bug (HTTP_Download() function and similar), and it definitely was one, I had
              1. Determined that the problem was absolutely consistent in it's operation (rare intermittent problems are very difficult to solve)
              2. Sent them a SHORT piece of code that showed it working and non-working
              3. Identified behavior changing from Ver 9 to Ver 10/11
              4. Was pretty sure there was no workaround within Alpha

              The above, plus the fact that Alpha agreed it was a bug and the relatively easy fix for Alpha is the reason I believe for the quick turnaround in this case.

              My message board post was to find out why I was the 1st person finding it since Version 10 being released (October 2009 - See my list of Release dates if curious), when I thought this might be used by many users. Out of curiosity, I checked and there seems to be only one place within Alpha that they ever used the functions in a way that would fail, and it would rarely (and obviously almost never) be used by any user this way. It was for a very special case that most users would never ever encounter, essentially reducing the occurrence to zero probability within Alpha.

              However, I was surprised that no other users reported encountering the issue in their own code.

              But there are many cases that are much more difficult to solve, or Alpha doesn't agree it's a bug. Most problems (I'm guessing >95%) posted on the message forum are probably not bugs, but a user's misunderstanding of how to do something. Probably another 4% have relatively easy workarounds or alternatives, and the rest may be real bugs, but many of these are transitory in the sense they are immediately corrected by the next patch release.

              Alpha Five suffers from being a program that can be used by "non-programmers", and succeeds better than most. Nevertheless, these many of these same non-programmers probably are in deeper water than they can navigate, and thus generates a larger than normal level of complaints that, in a programmer's only product, would seldom be seen. Also non-programmers often see the reporting of bugs as an indicator of a buggy product, but programmers know this can be a normal level of issues.

              How to reconcile the 2 types of users and their needs is probably the most difficult issue that Alpha Five has in terms of promotion and marketing.
              Regards,

              Ira J. Perlow
              Computer Systems Design


              CSDA A5 Products
              New - Free CSDA DiagInfo - v1.39, 30 Apr 2013
              CSDA Barcode Functions

              CSDA Code Utility
              CSDA Screen Capture


              Comment


                Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

                I have found that when one is having trouble coding, the best approach is to create a simple database whose sole function is to make the problem code work. 9 times out of ten, the problem is in my methodology. The one time may be a bug.

                Now that I have a simple database with a repeatable problem, if I feel it�s a bug, I submit the zipped database to Alpha. I almost aways get a response within a day or two and most of the time Selwyn provides me with a work around.

                The key is to not bitch about the problem but to work with Alpha so they can see your code and what you believe is a problem.

                I for one believe that Alpha�s support is outstanding and Selwyn is very receptive to well thought out bug reports. And when he helps me, I always send a thank you reply.

                With regards to upgrade patches; Unless there is something in the new patch that you need, maybe you shouldn�t upgrade. Like a new windows operating system, let it mature before jumping in. If I want a new patch, I always wait a couple of weeks to see if the new patch breaks something. All one has to do is to read the release notes to see what�s going on. I�m working mainly with the desktop side and it appears that most of the bugs are with the web side.

                Lastly, I�m using Install Creator made by Clickteam. It�s free and while the free version is not as powerful as some of the other install programs out there, I have been able to make some flawless install applications for my Alpha Databases. At this point I�m only making install files for stand alone applications. As stated earlier in the thread, Alpha takes the shotgun approach and installs everything. I�m doing the same. I�m using Oracle VM Virtualbox to create virgin operating systems to test my installs.

                I resisted learning an installation program, but I�m glad I spent the time with Install Creator. Numerous comments on this thread were helpful too. Now I can get a single file to a client and they can successfully install my application with shortcuts in place, an uninstall utility, and the necessary files will be registered.

                Just my 2 cents.

                Ron
                Alpha 5 Version 11
                AA Build 2999, Build 4269, Current Build
                DBF's and MySql
                Desktop, Web on the Desktop and WEB

                Ron Anusiewicz

                Comment


                  Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

                  Ira/Ron.
                  The points are well made.
                  I'm happy with the product, and as an old jobbing developer, most of the bugs just pass me by so I do it a different way. My approach is usually "I cannot do that for you, but I can do this, which will work better".
                  One thing I've found is that if I suddenly think "wouldn't it be nice to be able to....", it's already a function or somewhere in Alpha already.
                  Some of the stuff you guys do with Xbasic scares me, but having said that I used to code a lot in SOB's Basic years ago, but Basic has moved on a lot since then.

                  The issue regarding competency is going to get deeper. Going back to A3 Dos days, it was a much simpler product to get your head around. Nowadays, with the compexity, it's no longer a totally Non Programmers tool. Sure you can do lots without programming, but there are times when Variables are essential, so the learning curve steepens.

                  I'll have a look at the installer Ron. Thanks for the suggestion.
                  See our Hybrid Option here;
                  https://hybridapps.example-software.com/


                  Apologies to anyone I haven't managed to upset yet.
                  You are held in a queue and I will get to you soon.

                  Comment


                    Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

                    It sounds as if you are experiencing a problem similar to what we experienced in trying to use Inno Setup to install a v11 app.

                    It turned out that the sequence in which pieces of the install were performed was the key. We had to rewrite the install to test for the o/s (32 bit, 64 bit) so the install would automatically use the proper files.

                    I think we posted the actual install code on the Forum. If you cannot find it, I can send you a copy of the install which may help you with your problem.

                    Mel Thompson

                    Comment


                      Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

                      I had been having similar problems and frustrations. But after reading Selwyn's instructions and following them (install the runtime program and included .net), I was able to get my application running on my 5-year-old Acer Netbook running XP. So I suggest you give it a good try.

                      --Al K.

                      Comment

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