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Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another PC...

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    #46
    Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

    Dave,

    Using Astrum, have you found a way for the install to detect if .Net4 is already installed and then skip the process the if it already exists? Very few of our customers that download our apps are experienced PC users and the decisions to make can be confusing for them. We load between 10 and 30 of our apps each week so have held back on installing later builds of V10 and V11 that require .net4

    Michael
    Last edited by Michael Humby; 11-27-2011, 05:30 AM.

    Comment


      #47
      Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

      To the best of my knowledge, v10 & .5 do not need .net in the runtime.

      I have not found a way to accurately detect net4 as yet. Once .net starts, it prompts the user to quit, repair or reinstall the .net. I try to instruct the users to quit if they see that prompt.

      I am working on this and hope someone more knowledgeable will jump in. I think there should be a variable out there(in the system) that would tell us if it is installed. Older versions of astrum only checked to .net3.5 and now it does detect 4.0. I am just not yet aware of how. I am going to post this question on their message board.

      edit: I found it.
      create a variable called <net40is> and define it for 40000
      under the .net file in interactive and shell, choose to run it on exit, and conditions <.NETVersion> not equal to <net40is>
      it will not run if .net4 exists on my machine. I have not tested on a clean machine yet to make sure it happens.

      Now I need to work on the c++ thing.
      Last edited by DaveM; 11-26-2011, 07:38 PM.
      Dave Mason
      [email protected]
      Skype is dave.mason46

      Comment


        #48
        Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

        somebody didn't read Selwyn's reply
        try re-reading it

        it tells you that if you install v11 with alpha's install execs, dot net will be auto installed, along with whatever else is required

        the simple installer you are trying to get to work was written several years ago, and does not currently create what you need if Alpha V11 has not already been installed.

        if you want to make an install exec, you will need to use a 3rd party, or else create a way to auto install dot net and other required dll's, etc.
        Cole Custom Programming - Terrell, Texas
        972 524 8714
        [email protected]

        ____________________
        "A young man who is not liberal has no heart, but an old man who is not conservative has no mind." GB Shaw

        Comment


          #49
          Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

          Martin,

          That is kinda what we are talking about. We kinda switched off to astrum installer as Selwyn spoke of using an outside installer. Alpha's does not always do what is needed by all people. It is nice to have something that does, but it does take a little learning to use in the way we sometimes need.

          Note that there are other installers available other than astrum.

          Back to astrum and alpha runtime. It seems I read somewhere that the install will take line commands. Does anyone know if you can install runtime to a specific place and do it in a quite manner so as to not be seen? In other words, so the user has no reason(cannot) intervene?
          Dave Mason
          [email protected]
          Skype is dave.mason46

          Comment


            #50
            Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

            Just a FYI : Astrum has a setting which will check for a minimal version of dotnet (Several choices)---if it is present it will skip whatever the action you create for it (use website, install file, etc). Along with this you can utilize Alpha's dotnet web installer with Astrum instead of including the dotnet large file with a runtime if wanted.....or even have Astrum just go to any website I believe. Older versions of Astrum do not have this feature however. And dotnet 4.0 was required for an install I created for v10.5 .
            Mike
            __________________________________________
            It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know.
            It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
            Henry David Thoreau
            __________________________________________



            Comment


              #51
              Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

              Mike,

              Were you using something odd in the app that cause it to access .net? Mine are usually pretty plain Jane apps. There are few of the newer setups in them.

              Anyway, based on what you just said, I am going to include the .net as I already do. I had figured that on moving an app to v11, I would need it anyway.

              Some of my installs do not go on computers with web access. I pretty much have to install from the big file. I think there are 2 .net 40 installs. One is client and the other is the full. May be wrong, but I don't think it matters which is on the puter for alpha. Can you verify that? I have posed questions in astrum forum and hope to get an answer in a few days that may clarify some of this.
              Dave Mason
              [email protected]
              Skype is dave.mason46

              Comment


                #52
                Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

                Dave,

                edit: I found it.
                create a variable called <net40is> and define it for 40000
                under the .net file in interactive and shell, choose to run it on exit, and conditions <.NETVersion> not equal to <net40is>
                it will not run if .net4 exists on my machine. I have not tested on a clean machine yet to make sure it happens.
                I don't think this variable route will work since .net4 must already exist anyway before you can actually run the Runtime of later builds of V10.5 and V11. So the only solution is via the the third party installer and maybe this thread should switch to the Astrum message board if we want to create a seamless install without user intervention that skips the .net4 install if it is already present.

                Michael

                (Sorry Dave, have re-read your post, I thought you meant create the variable within Alpha, I see now you mean Astrum)
                Last edited by Michael Humby; 11-27-2011, 10:04 AM. Reason: forgot an important line

                Comment


                  #53
                  Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

                  Dave....nothing odd...the runtime just would not function without .NET is all.

                  The client is most likely all that is required by Alpha--just going by the fact that when you use the .NET exe that Alpha provides, it goes to MicroSoft and downloads a much smaller version of .NET than the full one is. I use Alpha's exe (link) in Astrum as that way the installation file is much less in size.
                  Mike
                  __________________________________________
                  It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know.
                  It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
                  Henry David Thoreau
                  __________________________________________



                  Comment


                    #54
                    Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

                    From one of the astrum people for checking c++. I have not tried it yet, maybe tomorrow.

                    Variable name: <VisualCpp2010RuntimeExists>
                    Default value: 0
                    Variable type: Number
                    Get variable from: Registry
                    Root key: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE
                    Path: SOFTWARE\Wow6432Node\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Uninstall\{5D9ED403-94DE-3BA0-B1D6-71F4BDA412E6}
                    Dave Mason
                    [email protected]
                    Skype is dave.mason46

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

                      I found this thread to be very interesting and slightly disappointing. Here are a few of my thoughts.

                      I guess my first question would be, �How hard is it to install an application developed in Microsoft Access or Filemaker?� Do they provide an install maker? From Alpha�s perspective, I�m sure it�s a lot more fun developing WEB and desktop features than an install program.

                      That said, as developers, why do we need to keep re-inventing the wheel each of us trying to figure out a bullet proof scheme just to deploy our application built with Alpha�s product. Alpha knows exactly what needs to be installed and registered, what needs to be run with XP, Vista and Windows 7. It seems to me that Alpha would benefit greatly by making a robust enough install maker that developers could use to deploy applications built on Alpha�s Software. Why should I have to purchase someone else�s software, spend hours learning how to use it, spend more hours of trial and error to get the install to run right after spending more time searching this board to try and determine why my installation keeps on failing? Alpha has all the answers, yet I have not found a single source outlining the steps to be taken for a successful installation. This thread has overturned some rocks for me.

                      I�ve personally have not had very good luck creating an install application. As a result, I have a number of applications that I could freely distribute, but I only distribute them locally as there is always a problem that shows up during the installation. Either the shortcut builder in alpha�s installer fails or something needs to be registered or who knows what else. It�s never anything that isn�t that big to fix as long as I am there. I truly wish that I could create a CD that I could hand out to whomever, and they could run the CD to either install my application or to reinstall my application after a system crash.

                      I think Alpha is missing the boat on this one. I would definitely benefit from a true application installer from Alpha. I want calls from my customers about using my application. Not how to install my application or there is no shortcut. And I don�t want them going to the control panel to use the shortcut builder tool which is what I end up doing all the time. If I benefit from having a true installer, then Alpha benefits as I will sell more of our product.

                      I haven�t even mentioned the shadowed database installation. I�ve built the boot install as Alpha recommends. It�s a lot of work to get it to work right.

                      Again, my complaint is for the unassisted installation. When I can walk into an office and do a hands on install, I can always make it work. Although even here I spend more time than would be required with a good installation tool.

                      And from Alpha, I�m not looking for something necessarily free. If I need to buy Astrum, why can�t I by Alpha�s Super Install Tool? Actually, after reading what I have just written, I realize that what I�m asking for is strictly a desktop application feature.

                      Ron
                      Alpha 5 Version 11
                      AA Build 2999, Build 4269, Current Build
                      DBF's and MySql
                      Desktop, Web on the Desktop and WEB

                      Ron Anusiewicz

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

                        Ron, I empathise, but fortunately I haven't had as many issues with V7,8,9 Runtime installs.
                        Until recently, V9 would install almost anywhere. The only issue recently was that the server did not have permissions set and shared access was blocked.
                        I always test the builds on my own kit, and Win7 has given me a few headaches, but I've overcome those and along with the other contributors on the Forum, we seem to have the problem licked with V9.
                        V10 and V11 are different animals as they need .net 3 or .net4, and as the host platform is unknown, there are a few more steps required for unattended installation.
                        Alpha has however missed a trick on this one, as a number of the new users on the Forum are really expecting to develop apps. without any programming skills - and to deploy them as easily.
                        Alpha was always advertised as a product which didn't require programming skills, and I fight really hard - as evidenced by my silly coding questions from time to time - to stay with that objective.
                        Fortunately I have a few grey hairs in the IT world, so I can either get around an install problem, or am able to get advice and a workaround, so I haven't failed entirely yet.
                        I do think that the advent of .net and Win7 coupled with a new and very powerful version of Alpha (which I cannot actually afford at the moment) there are, as a nice lady in Mexico said to me when confronted with a huge shower and bath she couldn't get to work; "too many moving parts!". I know what she meant now.
                        See our Hybrid Option here;
                        https://hybridapps.example-software.com/


                        Apologies to anyone I haven't managed to upset yet.
                        You are held in a queue and I will get to you soon.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

                          Let's simplify this(my opinion):

                          if you send a cd to someone, you need a file on the cd to make it run(autorun.inf).
                          You can install the alpha runtime which will give the option to install c++ runtime and the .net. Simple? Problem is, it installs wherever the user says or maybe where I do not want it.
                          That same file(autorun.inf) can be used to install your prebuilt runtime app as alpha built it.

                          This is similar to many installs. It does NOT satisfy what I want. I do hand out a cd that works on anything from 2000 to win 7 and it does not work like above. Mine works even when there is no internet available. That is a must for me. It does have an autorun.inf that simply starts whatever .exe I want run. Like this:
                          [autorun]
                          open=racecar.exe
                          icon=RaceCar.ico

                          Read bootstrap real careful in the wiki or wherever you find it. On a server system has 2 seperate installs, one for server and one for work station. The server is simply put the data stuff there. The workstation installs and when you start the adb, it runs the ae and does a few other things and then prompts the user for the shared folder on the server. once done, the shadow operation is run. That overwrites the boot adb of the same name.

                          Now lets go to any other applications out there(vb - c# - C++). I do not know of any that do a great job of making an installer:
                          You have to either write your own or use something like astrum.

                          I am not inclined to purchase of v11 yet either. In the future!

                          You could go to Ideascale and vote for this:
                          Desktop - Alpha Installer - .net and c++
                          http://alphasoftware.ideascale.com/a...nFilter=active

                          I put it in a few days ago and it is under the hot heading at this time. I hate the ideascale idea and the use of it, but it is all we have for a wishlist.


                          My simple bootstrap on the workstation download of my app:

                          Code:
                          dim master_db_name as C
                          dim shadow_db_name as C
                          master_db_name = "[URL="file://\\path\ups55\sales.adb"]\\path\ups55\sales.adb[/URL]"
                          shadow_db_name = "c:\ups55\sales.adb"
                           
                          ui_modeless_dlg_box("Install Ups55",<<%dlg%
                          {can_exit=exit}
                          {lf};
                          Specify the path and filename of the master copy of the applicationlike: [URL="file://\\pc2\ups55\sales.adb"]\\pc2\ups55\sales.adb[/URL] ;
                          [%P=ui_get_file("Select file","(*.adb)",master_db_name)%.100master_db_name];
                          {lf};
                          <Click Here to Start Install!oK?.not.(master_db_name="")> <Cancel!cancel>;
                          %dlg%,<<%code%
                           
                          if a_dlg_button = "cancel" then 
                              ui_modeless_dlg_close("Install UPS55")
                              a_dlg_button = ""
                          end if
                           
                          if a_dlg_button = "oK" then 
                              if file.exists(master_db_name) = .f. then 
                                  ui_msg_box("Error","Master Database not found.")
                              else
                                  shadow_db_name = a5.Get_Name()
                                  a5.Load(master_db_name)
                                  a5_nopt_CopyAddFiles(shadow_db_name, master_db_name)
                                  create_shadow(shadow_db_name, master_db_name,.t.)
                                  ui_modeless_dlg_close("Install Ups55")
                              end if 
                          end if 
                          %code%)
                          This was originally in v7 and it still works today.
                          Last edited by DaveM; 11-29-2011, 07:56 PM.
                          Dave Mason
                          [email protected]
                          Skype is dave.mason46

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

                            For clarification Dave.
                            Do you install a Runtime separately from the App?
                            I'm not clear about getting .net on the machine. Does it come bundled with the RT package?
                            See our Hybrid Option here;
                            https://hybridapps.example-software.com/


                            Apologies to anyone I haven't managed to upset yet.
                            You are held in a queue and I will get to you soon.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

                              Ted

                              The Runtime exe does install .net if you run it, what we would like to know is if the Runtime exe checks if the .net 4.0 is already installed and then skip the installation if it is. If so how does Alpha detect it?

                              Michael

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Re: Frustration and more frustration trying to install a V11 desktop app on another P

                                Mornin' Mike.
                                Ron Cooper had the same problem when he was installing his Butchers app.
                                In his first attempt, he tried to reinstall .net - already on the PC - and it blew up in his face.
                                Second attempt, I advised thet he could ignore the message which warns that .net is required, and it went straight in.
                                Once Alpha is running, it's possible to check an see if specific files are present. As you know, it won't work if .net ain't there.

                                So, going back to my 1986 Dos manual - doubt MSdos has changed much - there is a [FINDFILE] feature which you could run as a separate batch file and display a message until someone at Alpha adds the feature - which I suspect will be pretty soon.
                                Try Command Prompt and enter Help in the panel.
                                See our Hybrid Option here;
                                https://hybridapps.example-software.com/


                                Apologies to anyone I haven't managed to upset yet.
                                You are held in a queue and I will get to you soon.

                                Comment

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