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Something needs to be done about the help system...

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    #46
    Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

    Since my company requires our application to be able to function when disconnected, and since our databases are fairly large, we have essentially bypassed nearly ALL of the convenience features provided by Alpha.
    Hhmm...

    FWIW: Alpha provides quite exceptional disconnected capabilities including loading data into SQL Lite.

    If you are building on the DOM level I can't help but wonder why use a RAD tool like Alpha?
    Peter
    AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

    [email protected]
    https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


    Comment


      #47
      Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

      Originally posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
      Hhmm...

      FWIW: Alpha provides quite exceptional disconnected capabilities including loading data into SQL Lite.

      If you are building on the DOM level I can't help but wonder why use a RAD tool like Alpha?
      You can load data into SQLite, but if your data is much larger than 5 megs (the typical browser's "sandboxed" storage space), you'll have to use PhoneGap (or write a native application) to expose the native file system , and even then Alpha won't help reconcile the differences between the offline and the online databases without employing exotic, hand-written methods.

      The Alpha Web Application Server will provide a lot of back-end support for my project, particularly for the maintenance and management screens, but as for the almost "totally disconnected" apps that will be running on our mobile devices, we can't escape having to use the occasional AJAX callback in order to submit collected data and update internal databases. Besides that, Alpha also provides a lot of session management functions that I would not enjoy re-creating, not to mention its extremely fast and useful database handling functionality.

      While Alpha certainly does offer some excellent offline features, these quickly fall away when a project is taken out of the "pure Alpha" topology. The features that track and assist reconciliation of disconnected data tables appear to be rendered unusable if the developer takes it upon himself to manage a "disconnected" local database, because controls used to access the data tables don't work quite the same way, so to get the complete functionality provided by Alpha's automatic reconciliation, a developer would have to either code all of the reconciliation routines manually, or maintain two UX control sets, one to use while connected, and one to use while disconnected, along with methods for switching between the two.

      The organization of this project presents some mixed blessings, which is why I decided to tackle offline, client-side database management which I otherwise would have avoided.

      First, most of the data required for daily operation by the app is read-only, the bulk of which is filled with images. Since I don't like BLOBS, particularly in SQLite, these don't present much of a management issue, but they do require space that local device storage in the browser sandbox can't provide, and I don't want to try to access these particular images from the device gallery, so enter PhoneGap.

      Second, since the device-local databases are read-only except for the tables that store collected data, no reconciliation will have to be done; no two users will ever be operating on the same record, at least from the mobile clients.

      Finally, even in its most developed form, this project running on mobile devices can only progress to a point where the employee must halt work until other processes have been completed for this job. Then what? Our project is IN disconnected mode BECAUSE something failed, either the network, or the server. So what am I supposed to do with the collected data? Submit it to where? Until the connection is restored, the data is going nowhere, notifications will not be dispatched, so operations grind to a halt. I have a plan for such an emergency, but this still requires a connection to the Emergency NAS to allow printing of hard-copy "work-in-progress" documents.

      So basically, this project is an hybrid "online/offline" application, at least where the mobile devices are concerned, and it really doesn't NEED Alpha's auto-reconciliation, which is the only reason I considered tackling it, but it will still leverage the typical Alpha WAS callback functionality, which is why I didn't write a native app in Android Studio or Eclipse.

      Given the learning curve involved with developing specialized Alpha webapps, I probably could have been much farther along, having developed a much faster native application - on the client device. But writing the equivalent of the server-side of Alpha, or its database management system, is not something I would care to tackle.

      The real fun will begin when I get to the server side where I will have to convince XBasic to issue Windows API calls.

      Comment


        #48
        Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

        Mark Bunds,

        IMHO:
        1. The Help system in Alpha is not for learning how to build an application. To build an application in Alpha one must know how to fit all the Alpha pieces into the context of an overall system. For that, one must turn to some kind of sample application that uses proper techniques for developing a large application in this environment. I think getting training from a 3rd party developer is probably the way to get started in Alpha.

        2. When developing a database application in Alpha, ask yourself if you can tie yourself to a single SQL vendor such as Microsoft SQL or MySQL and if you are going to be able to control the version of the database engine. If the answer is "Yes" to both of these, then look at leveraging the database by using Views, Stored Procedures, Triggers, Table-Valued procedures, etc. In places where alpha has difficulty working with multiple tables, let SQL do the hard work and let alpha see things as a flat table by just giving alpha a SQL view or procedure.

        3. Always keep in mind there is more than one way to do something in this environment. A lot of times the first way you see something demonstrated in the alpha videos or tutorials may not be the best way. For example, how many videos and tutorials have we seen where a Grid is based on a "table or view". In a real application a "table or view" based Grid isn't practical; it always seems better/easier to use a "SQL Select Statement", so the field lookups can be easily defined for the browse window. (NOTE: if you do choose a Grid instead of a UX, you have to be very careful about performance and usability on the target device. I think Lee said this in an earlier post, just go with UX's.)

        Comment


          #49
          Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

          Originally posted by parkjammer View Post
          ...While in most cases a solution was ultimately simple and was due to some trivial but
          non-obvious bit of knowledge I was missing, I wasted days finding many of them and
          might as well have coded in a native operating system language.

          This is particularly true when you already have substantial coding, database, and general
          development skills in multiple technologies and expect your knowledge and a good RAD
          tool to make both prototyping and release of a passable version 1.0 to be relatively quick.

          (Emphasis by commenter)

          It has been my experience that there are great things about Alpha and there are a very
          large number of great and well organized videos and an active and helpful forum.

          And yet... if you do anything serious (commercial) and really get into the nitty gritty
          of perfectly aligned visual elements, multiple apps and UX components, and combining
          features (e.g. PDF, GPS, multi-UX, login/security, matched websites) that you are forced
          not simply to do some code... but do spend DAYS hunting through examples, the forum,
          videos, and the google universe.

          You don't simply need to understand a few things and add a little code... you have to become
          aware of the under-pinnings of Alpha and javascript. In fact, you really do have to gain
          fluency with javascript which wasn't something I initially expected.
          I absolutely could not have presented the above sentiment any better!

          In Alpha, I have had to "extrapolate" methods from disparate tutorials, videos, and external searches to perform exceptionally simple functions,
          like programmatically changing button text, which has cost me weeks just to "figure things out." And if any subject requires intensive reference
          documentation, it's the subject surrounding mobile screen nuances, and how to get consistent results. I hate it when a layout that looks great on
          an iPhone, an Android Galaxy note, AND FireFox, but has subtle alignment issues on an Android Nokia, Google Chrome, and an Android tablet.

          I used to approach a day of programming with excitement, just loving to construct programs by trying new (well-documented) methods. But in
          Alpha, as soon as I run into some simple operation I wish to perform, having no immediately obvious solution, the dread sets in, because I know
          I'll be bouncing around the old and new Alpha help docs, the forums, the Internet, and watching videos of unrelated topics hoping to stumble upon
          a clue.

          Originally posted by parkjammer View Post
          Perhaps one suggestion to Alpha down the road is "spread the load". Perhaps a section of the help
          could be set aside for crowd-sourced input
          . While there is some risk in this and the community
          might need some oversight, perhaps gaps could be filled those of users who have and then
          resolve issues. Just thinking out loud...

          Now there's an idea! A read-only Wiki maintained by Alpha, supported by a user-editable Wiki that Alpha could review and the "fold" into the permanent one.

          Comment


            #50
            Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

            Originally posted by RichCPT View Post
            Mark Bunds,

            IMHO:
            1. The Help system in Alpha is not for learning how to build an application. To build an application in Alpha one must know how to fit all the Alpha pieces into the context of an overall system. For that, one must turn to some kind of sample application that uses proper techniques for developing a large application in this environment. I think getting training from a 3rd party developer is probably the way to get started in Alpha.

            2. When developing a database application in Alpha, ask yourself if you can tie yourself to a single SQL vendor such as Microsoft SQL or MySQL and if you are going to be able to control the version of the database engine. If the answer is "Yes" to both of these, then look at leveraging the database by using Views, Stored Procedures, Triggers, Table-Valued procedures, etc. In places where alpha has difficulty working with multiple tables, let SQL do the hard work and let alpha see things as a flat table by just giving alpha a SQL view or procedure.

            3. Always keep in mind there is more than one way to do something in this environment. A lot of times the first way you see something demonstrated in the alpha videos or tutorials may not be the best way. For example, how many videos and tutorials have we seen where a Grid is based on a "table or view". In a real application a "table or view" based Grid isn't practical; it always seems better/easier to use a "SQL Select Statement", so the field lookups can be easily defined for the browse window. (NOTE: if you do choose a Grid instead of a UX, you have to be very careful about performance and usability on the target device. I think Lee said this in an earlier post, just go with UX's.)
            The Alpha documentation is barely rounded-out enough to provide comprehensive reference, much less training for app construction. No matter how advanced or experienced a developer may be, when documented answers cannot be found for simple questions in just a few minutes, the documentation is lacking.

            That's really, really excellent advice concerning database application development! Our project employs a fourth-form normalized schema that cannot use referential integrity since the data elements are related by linking tables, and the permutations of the result sets prohibit the use of stored procedures in any conventional manner, but triggers and table-valued procedures may have some traction in the maintenance table sets.

            I've never liked data-bound controls, and although Alpha does offer a much greater set of features for bound-data display than others do, I would much rather manage my own SQL:

            Code:
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            FROM scp_jobs scp_jobs
            	 LEFT OUTER JOIN (scp_scopes scp_scopes
            		 LEFT OUTER JOIN (scp_scope_cover_link scp_scope_cover_link
            			 LEFT OUTER JOIN scp_cover_content scp_cover_content
            				 ON  scp_scope_cover_link.cover_id = scp_cover_content.id 
            			 LEFT OUTER JOIN (scp_scope_chapter_link scp_scope_chapter_link
            				 LEFT OUTER JOIN scp_chapter scp_chapter
            					 ON  scp_scope_chapter_link.chapter_id = scp_chapter.id 
            				 LEFT OUTER JOIN (scp_chapter_instructions_link scp_chapter_instructions_link
            					 LEFT OUTER JOIN scp_chapter_instructions scp_chapter_instructions
            						 ON  scp_chapter_instructions_link.chapter_instructions_id = scp_chapter_instructions.id 
            					 LEFT OUTER JOIN (scp_chapter_section_link scp_chapter_section_link
            						 LEFT OUTER JOIN scp_section scp_section
            							 ON  scp_chapter_section_link.section_id = scp_section.id 
            						 LEFT OUTER JOIN (scp_section_instructions_link scp_section_instructions_link
            							 LEFT OUTER JOIN scp_section_instructions scp_section_instructions
            								 ON  scp_section_instructions_link.section_instructions_id = scp_section_instructions.id 
            							 LEFT OUTER JOIN (scp_section_block_link scp_section_block_link
            								 LEFT OUTER JOIN scp_block scp_block
            									 ON  scp_section_block_link.block_id = scp_block.id 
            								 LEFT OUTER JOIN (scp_block_instructions_link scp_block_instructions_link
            									 LEFT OUTER JOIN scp_block_instructions scp_block_instructions
            										 ON  scp_block_instructions_link.block_instructions_id = scp_block_instructions.id )
            									 ON  scp_section_block_link.cover_id = scp_block_instructions_link.cover_id  AND  scp_section_block_link.chapter_id = scp_block_instructions_link.chapter_id  AND  scp_section_block_link.section_id = scp_block_instructions_link.section_id  AND  scp_section_block_link.block_id = scp_block_instructions_link.block_id 
            								 LEFT OUTER JOIN (scp_block_comments_link scp_block_comments_link
            									 LEFT OUTER JOIN scp_block_comments scp_block_comments
            										 ON  scp_block_comments_link.block_comments_id = scp_block_comments.id )
            									 ON  scp_section_block_link.cover_id = scp_block_comments_link.cover_id  AND  scp_section_block_link.chapter_id = scp_block_comments_link.chapter_id  AND  scp_section_block_link.section_id = scp_block_comments_link.section_id  AND  scp_section_block_link.block_id = scp_block_comments_link.block_id 
            								 LEFT OUTER JOIN (scp_block_controls_link scp_block_controls_link
            									 LEFT OUTER JOIN scp_block_controls scp_block_controls
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            									 ON  scp_section_block_link.cover_id = scp_block_controls_link.cover_id  AND  scp_section_block_link.chapter_id = scp_block_controls_link.chapter_id  AND  scp_section_block_link.section_id = scp_block_controls_link.section_id  AND  scp_section_block_link.block_id = scp_block_controls_link.block_id )
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            Comment


              #51
              Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

              Originally posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
              Hhmm...
              If you are building on the DOM level I can't help but wonder why use a RAD tool like Alpha?
              Yep , agree

              Comment


                #52
                Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

                what u see in common RAD is easy learn ?but some times overhead the goals of your project, pending on your choice. Regular u see it's back to the keyboard, eq gulp, bower bootstrap, npm, aurila, angular etc spliting client from server behavior. But A5 is still a good tool if u need a shortcut like other RAD tools on the market u choose.

                Comment


                  #53
                  Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

                  Mark, you killed me with this bit
                  "I absolutely abhor help systems which are loaded with all kinds of verbiage touting what a "feature" can do, but contain no syntactical examples which leaves me no option but to search forums or browse loosely-organized help files for more information, and then, upon finding it, having to struggle through experimentation because the help section is too terse or too ambiguously worded to provide direct, comprehensive help."

                  How many times have I felt that frustration, only to discover how simple what I wanted to achieve really is.

                  BTW - I realise this reply is somewhat later than the original post, which I have only just seen.

                  Looking forward to seeing the new help. Maybe then, I'll resubscribe :)
                  Last edited by chortle; 09-29-2016, 01:27 PM.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

                    Originally posted by bea2701 View Post
                    But A5 is still a good tool if u need a shortcut like other RAD tools on the market u choose.
                    Alpha is RAD but you are not forced to use it as just RAD tool. You have choices and you can use your own skills. Alpha allow (or did allow) it. But I want so say in same breath that how Alpha is now developing AA is confusing. They talk about components but almost all new functionality/feature is available just in UX (and maybe in grid). I would like to build the application from much more little pieces.

                    If you examine how MS have build their new ASP.NET Core you notice that IDE(Visual Studio) is number one. You build your software functionality adding little things.
                    So adding a class/function you get that feature available from framework. The result is clean code just what you need to run you software. For reason or other Alpha has totally forget their build in IDE. Now we are using huge UX component for every little task for example login. Why?

                    Also documentation is now difficult to write because we are not using functions but tapping check boxes everywhere.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

                      I think every modern RAD tools has overhead in UI and generated code because of the complexity of these days user request some next RAD is a time saver [ why else buy it ] the alternative is back to the keyboard using plain old code instructions like ASP CORE, once u know RAD this u ever go back to that commandline console

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

                        Maybe what they should do is EVERYONE at Alpha for one week devote all of their energy to the HELP section - divide up the sections and go write documentation, date it and sign off as the author. Next month - swap out sections review and continue.
                        While I am ALWAYS impressed with the NEW features and rapid bug fixes, perhaps it is time to really give the help system a good run through the fire!

                        To be honest I either watch a video or search the forums - it's just easier for me to learn that way. I like to see working code not a snippet with the word "foo" involved. If I never see the word "foo" again I would not be sad, in fact I hate that I just wrote it in an example of why I hate it - but I digress.
                        Keep the videos coming!
                        NWCOPRO: Nuisance Wildlife Control Software My Application: http://www.nwcopro.com "Without forgetting, we would have no memory at all...now what was I saying?"

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

                          In the past that been tried serval times, even A5 was looking for a technical writer how is not easy to find. u see these questions also with other vendors, i think A5 is doing the best they can with fast changeing IT market technologies to day

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

                            The one-year anniversary of this post is approaching, and after realizing that I would be better off working with the Alpha Mentors AFTER really digging-in and learning all I could by following the suggested learning path, I have come to the conclusion that the actual problem is that I am completely and entirely retarded.

                            Apparently, I have always been too stupid to realize just how utterly retarded I really am!

                            I mean, come on, only an idiot would take as long as I have with this "Low-Code" and "Ultra-Simple" environment to produce the simple app that I have assembled so far, having only a custom virtual keyboard, and two lists running inside two panel cards.

                            A few years ago, I created a much more complex system of screens using C# and WPF from scratch, with no exposure to C# beyond its similarity to VB.NET (and C, with which I have extensive experience), and none at all to WPF.

                            But despite having no knowledge of these products, somehow I was able to grasp the workflow of the VMMV paradigm, and work through the coupling of the WPF "code-behind", including the construction of, and connections to the databases. With all this stacked against me, I produced a robust commercial application in six months.

                            I guess Visual Studio projects are tailored to be easy for toddlers and the mentally handicapped, such as myself, because even though Alpha Anywhere is universally touted as being exceptionally fast and simple to learn, I am still struggling with things like "Multiple Layouts" in list controls, and the intricacies of the "Responsive layout settings" in the UX Properties tab.

                            I mean, these things are absolute "no-brainers", and only a complete blithering moron, like myself, would fail to grasp their use because if controls like these required any comprehensive explanation at all, there would be more than a few lines of documentation and a couple of videos.

                            It seems to me that I should be innately able to understand the effects of having the Alpha code "helping" to encapsulate custom JavaScript functions, and exactly know how the scope of the vars, objects, and CSS are enhanced or inhibited by these wrappers, but I don't; I suppose because I just don't have this born-in knowledge that is absolutely instinctive to normal Alpha developers.

                            It's pretty clear to me now that I had no business attempting to work with such a comprehensive product, given my inability to simply glance at the lessons and start producing world-class mobile apps.

                            After I finish working through my current struggle with why some properties in a "responsive layout" rule set change upon rotating the device, and some don't, or why the lists with multiple layouts fail to change THEIR properties, or why at least a million other things JUST DO NOT WORK AS THE TUTORIALS SUGGEST they should, I am planning to find a work-around that will support my ineptness.

                            Probably, if I don't forget how to breathe between now and then, and assuming I still have a job, I will extract all of the code from the compiled and published UX, and move it into a vastly simpler programming environment, tailored for simple minds like mine. Like Eclipse, or Android Studio; places where I stand a fighting chance of being productive.

                            Alpha has done all they can for me, offering to help me make up for my inability to work the product with its existing documentation with a generous offer of discounted training materials, and discounted tickets to the "Alpha-Dev-Con".

                            I still have something like 10 hours of mentor time left, but I just don't think I am competent enough to make effective use of it; every resolution seems to lead to more questions for which there are no answers, and all of the one-liners and "place holders" in the docs are so incredibly slow to be filled.

                            I wrote great Kudos about the beginnings of the new documentation, but its progress is not outpacing my need to be productive, and nothing at all has changed in regards to the painful path required to make the simplest things happen.

                            Alpha was a great investment, regardless, and no other product can beat its awesome database management features, but it is just not ready for prime-time for anything but the simplest mobile apps, at least for a new developer.

                            Believe me when I say I have given this project more than its due patience, and I now solidly wish I had started with another platform.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

                              I wish you had as well... as much as your verbose posts are a hoot to read. Yikes... you do go on... and on... and on. But I do hope you report back on your success with whatever other development environment you choose. Now... we'll shall fall into yet another pit of response posts.

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                                #60
                                Re: Something needs to be done about the help system...

                                Are you sure you were using Alpha? My experience has been the exact opposite.

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