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>= Nano Trivia <= , or is it?

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    #31
    Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

    Al,
    I was thinking more of limits used in integration where you think of a limit as say:
    The limit of "n", as "n" goes to infinity....which is the same as your last comment.
    Mike
    __________________________________________
    It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know.
    It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
    Henry David Thoreau
    __________________________________________



    Comment


      #32
      Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

      Originally posted by MikeC View Post
      Al,
      I was thinking more of limits used in integration where you think of a limit as say:
      The limit of "n", as "n" goes to infinity....which is the same as your last comment.
      Yes I figured as much...
      Al Buchholz
      Bookwood Systems, LTD
      Weekly QReportBuilder Webinars Thursday 1 pm CST

      Occam's Razor - KISS
      Normalize till it hurts - De-normalize till it works.
      Advice offered and questions asked in the spirit of learning how to fish is better than someone giving you a fish.
      When we triage a problem it is much easier to read sample systems than to read a mind.
      "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler."
      Albert Einstein

      http://www.iadn.com/images/media/iadn_member.png

      Comment


        #33
        Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

        Mathematically 10 is greater than 9.9 repeating. But not by much.

        In every practical application , 9.9 repeating would get rounded to 10 so then they are considered equal.

        Comment


          #34
          Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

          Originally posted by aRob View Post
          Mathematically 10 is greater than 9.9 repeating. But not by much.

          In every practical application , 9.9 repeating would get rounded to 10 so then they are considered equal.
          2 ways to prove that they are in fact equal.

          1. On a number line, what value would be between them?

          none...

          2.
          Code:
                   _
          10x=99.999
                   _
             x=9.999
          subtract
          9x=90

          therefore

          x=10
          Al Buchholz
          Bookwood Systems, LTD
          Weekly QReportBuilder Webinars Thursday 1 pm CST

          Occam's Razor - KISS
          Normalize till it hurts - De-normalize till it works.
          Advice offered and questions asked in the spirit of learning how to fish is better than someone giving you a fish.
          When we triage a problem it is much easier to read sample systems than to read a mind.
          "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler."
          Albert Einstein

          http://www.iadn.com/images/media/iadn_member.png

          Comment


            #35
            Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

            :D
            Now to remember the 6 line proof for proving 0 does not equal 1 ! (It was right after that when I stopped my math courses!)
            Mike
            __________________________________________
            It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know.
            It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
            Henry David Thoreau
            __________________________________________



            Comment


              #36
              Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

              Originally posted by Al Buchholz View Post
              2 ways to prove that they are in fact equal.

              1. On a number line, what value would be between them?

              none...

              2.
              Code:
                       _
              10x=99.999
                       _
                 x=9.999
              subtract
              9x=90

              therefore

              x=10
              Al:
              I have yet to figure out what is the point you are trying to make and my questions went unanswered. You must be in the state of "UN" as the commercial goes. To the best I could glean, I could see couple problems with your comments:

              First: You are asking the wrong question and clearly came up with the wrong answer.
              Second: Yes, as a matter of accepted principal 9.999.. to infinity equals 10, but to prove that using subtraction is about the worst way to do that in software computing. On paper, yes. In computers, no and let's not get into that, it's a whole new topic altogether.

              Comment


                #37
                Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                Guys the answer is indeed 100%
                as the Math tends to 100%

                Comment


                  #38
                  Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                  Now having ambled through the hypothesis of this debate, I would just add the >= simply removes the doubt. If it is not >= then nothing happens, yet if the programmer gets that one precious decimal wrong in their interpretation of > (and I know we are never wrong so hard to say) it can cost billions.
                  Last edited by Mark Pearson; 10-20-2009, 04:46 AM.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                    Originally posted by ColinJD View Post
                    Guys the answer is indeed 100%
                    as the Math tends to 100%
                    You have already provided an example of a number with out a digit of 8. And there are many more.

                    So either something was lost in the translation of the question, or the answer - 100% - is incorrect.
                    Al Buchholz
                    Bookwood Systems, LTD
                    Weekly QReportBuilder Webinars Thursday 1 pm CST

                    Occam's Razor - KISS
                    Normalize till it hurts - De-normalize till it works.
                    Advice offered and questions asked in the spirit of learning how to fish is better than someone giving you a fish.
                    When we triage a problem it is much easier to read sample systems than to read a mind.
                    "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler."
                    Albert Einstein

                    http://www.iadn.com/images/media/iadn_member.png

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                      If I am understanding the question correctly, then 100% is the correct answer.
                      It's a trick question.

                      The question asks:
                      Between zero and infinity, what percetage of all the decimal number have a digit 8 in them?

                      Between zero and infinity you could produce any random numbers all of which (not exactly) are decimal by definition, and all of which most definitely will have the digit 8.

                      I said "not exactly", because all the numbers produced will be decimals with the exception of zero, however that does not count in the grand scheme of things and secondly the question specifically asks what percentage of all the decimal.. thus excluding the zero.
                      There was a minor typo in the question (number should have been numbers) but it makes no difference.

                      Please, I sure hope no one is going to start a debate about zero and if zero has decimals, or is a decimal, or if it is an integer etc. Just for the sake of peace, let's leave it alone.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                        Al,

                        Looking at proof #1:

                        If we consider only integers and place them on a number line then there is no space between 9 and 10, thus proving that 9 equals 10. But there is no space between 8 and 9 either so 8=9 and then 8=10 so all integers are equal.

                        I would say that in fact there exists a number 0.000 ... 0001 which you can add to 9.999 repeating to give 10.

                        Looking at proof #2:

                        These are just unrelated equations for variable x. I can set up similar equations :
                        3x=9 ( so x=3)
                        2x=4 ( so x=2)
                        I can subract the two equations 3x-2x=9-4 to get
                        x=5
                        Therefore x=2=3=5


                        The number of numbers between 0 and infinity is infinite. The number of numbers containing an eight is also infinite. The percentage of numbers containing an eight is 100 *(number of numbers containing an eight / number of numbers) which is 100*(infinity/infinity) which is 100%.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                          Originally posted by aRob View Post
                          Al,

                          Looking at proof #1:

                          If we consider only integers and place them on a number line then there is no space between 9 and 10, thus proving that 9 equals 10. But there is no space between 8 and 9 either so 8=9 and then 8=10 so all integers are equal.

                          I would say that in fact there exists a number 0.000 ... 0001 which you can add to 9.999 repeating to give 10.

                          Looking at proof #2:

                          These are just unrelated equations for variable x. I can set up similar equations :
                          3x=9 ( so x=3)
                          2x=4 ( so x=2)
                          I can subract the two equations 3x-2x=9-4 to get
                          x=5
                          Therefore x=2=3=5


                          The number of numbers between 0 and infinity is infinite. The number of numbers containing an eight is also infinite. The percentage of numbers containing an eight is 100 *(number of numbers containing an eight / number of numbers) which is 100*(infinity/infinity) which is 100%.
                          Which proves if you start with a false premise, you can get false results.

                          False premise 1.

                          A number line with only integers. Not true, you are mixing ideas.

                          False premise 2.

                          You have 2 unequal statements that you are subtracting. Mine are both true

                          if 3x=9, then 2x=8 is false....

                          Somewhat like Mike's previous statement about a proof that he couldn't remember where the result is 1=0. The proof is based on a false premise of dividing by zero to get a number.

                          To make a proof work all steps must be valid and true.

                          The last one about the infinity, for a concept to be true, all proofs must be true. Sometimes some proofs appear to be true, but another method shows the concept to be something else.

                          So, since the example showed a number without an 8, the number of numbers with an 8 can't be 100%.

                          Many times is easier to disprove than to prove.

                          Maybe we should have a mathematics topic forum... Then we can talk about the different degrees/levels of infinity...
                          Al Buchholz
                          Bookwood Systems, LTD
                          Weekly QReportBuilder Webinars Thursday 1 pm CST

                          Occam's Razor - KISS
                          Normalize till it hurts - De-normalize till it works.
                          Advice offered and questions asked in the spirit of learning how to fish is better than someone giving you a fish.
                          When we triage a problem it is much easier to read sample systems than to read a mind.
                          "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler."
                          Albert Einstein

                          http://www.iadn.com/images/media/iadn_member.png

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                            Al,

                            False premise #1:

                            I used integers as simplified example of attempting to use a number line to prove something. You can't prove 10=9.999... using a number line.

                            False premise #2:

                            You have 2 unequal statements that you are subtracting. Mine are both true

                            if 3x=9, then 2x=8 is false....
                            if 10x=99.999... then 9x=90 is false

                            Your equations are just as false/true as mine are.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                              Originally posted by aRob View Post
                              False premise #2:



                              if 10x=99.999... then 9x=90 is false

                              Your equations are just as false/true as mine are.
                              Based on what?

                              if

                              2=2
                              (multiple both sides of the equation by 10)
                              then
                              2x10=2x10
                              or
                              20=20
                              subtract equals from equals
                              18=18
                              or
                              -18=-18

                              depending on the order that you do it, but the equation is still valid and true.

                              That's all I did with the variables.

                              Like this...
                              http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.0.9999.html
                              Al Buchholz
                              Bookwood Systems, LTD
                              Weekly QReportBuilder Webinars Thursday 1 pm CST

                              Occam's Razor - KISS
                              Normalize till it hurts - De-normalize till it works.
                              Advice offered and questions asked in the spirit of learning how to fish is better than someone giving you a fish.
                              When we triage a problem it is much easier to read sample systems than to read a mind.
                              "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler."
                              Albert Einstein

                              http://www.iadn.com/images/media/iadn_member.png

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Re: &gt;= Nano Trivia &lt;= , or is it?

                                Originally posted by aRob View Post
                                if 10x=99.999... then 9x=90 is false

                                Your equations are just as false/true as mine are.
                                Another way to illustrate Al's logic is as follows:

                                Suppose: x = 9.999...

                                Then:
                                10x = 99.999...
                                (10x - x) = (99.999... - 9.999...)
                                9x = 90
                                x = 10

                                That's a fully legitimate proof.

                                Steve
                                Last edited by Steve Andrews; 10-21-2009, 01:45 PM.

                                Comment

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