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How about a release?

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    #46
    Re: How about a release?

    Steve, in his post above, makes many good points. Just to add a few thoughts. The 8600+ (or however many there are) pages of the help file are very good in many ways. Most of the stuff in there is still very relevant. Alpha has 1200-2000(?) functions and they are well documented, as are other features. The release notes are great and very important. But that being said, there is still a problem. The problem is threefold as I see it:

    1) Since v8 the new features largely covered in videos and the release notes have not been integrated into the help docs. Sure, one can view the videos (at least the ones that haven't disappeared altogether) and one can read the very useful release notes. But if you need to find something that's in the release notes, and you have no idea that it is in there buried somewhere, good luck.

    2) New features are beautifully demonstrated in the videos. But they often are not documented. Many people have a hard time following the videos and applying it to their own applications. The videos are a great way to demo and inspire, but they don't obviate the need for a written description. When the videos disappear from the web, as some have in the past, you're plum out of luck.

    3) Tutorials. It's not that Alpha's tutorials are useless. They're not. They have a lot of value. But they don't present one with the point of view an "outsider" or a "beginner" (regardless of skill level) may have, and thus they generally fail as a "walk though" guide. e.g. The web tutorial IS useful, but at the same time it's tough to follow. Peter Wayne's Xbasic for Everyone is a good example of a useful, user friendly "tutorial" that helps solve real-world problems. We need a lot more of that.

    The bottom line for Alpha, IMHO, is they need to update and integrate the help files with all the functions and features since v8 has come out. They need to document in written language what the videos demonstrate. Merely listing the release notes in a new form won't cut it. Regurgitating the help files into the WiKi in and of itself will not resolve this fundamental problem that most of us are suffering from. Lack of complete and proper documentation is a hindrance to developers and users, as it is a barrier to potential new sales.
    Peter
    AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

    [email protected]
    https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


    Comment


      #47
      Re: How about a release?

      Ironically, this is by FAR the most popular topic/post being read today, or likely in recent history. Over 1,600 views in an hour and half...

      Comment


        #48
        Re: How about a release?

        Originally posted by jpeltola View Post
        Actually....while still waiting my beta...i had lots of time to search alternatives...and there actually are lots... so its not that monumental...
        It would be helpful if you specified what you think the alternatives are.

        We study all of the competing products in an effort to make a5 better.

        Comment


          #49
          Re: How about a release?

          Originally posted by Selwyn Rabins View Post
          It would be helpful if you specified what you think the alternatives are.

          We study all of the competing products in an effort to make a5 better.
          Well ok...most of them not so 'codeless'...but not sure if you can build apps without any knowledge about programming...

          But products like Iron Speed...CodeCharge..Wavemaker...Aware IM...AspRunner

          Comment


            #50
            Re: How about a release?

            Originally posted by Selwyn Rabins View Post
            It would be helpful if you specified what you think the alternatives are.

            We study all of the competing products in an effort to make a5 better.
            I refrained from commenting earlier but my company did some research before choosing alpha and there was not much out there in Alpha's price range that does everything that Alpha does. Alpha is not perfect by any means but what product is. I think that documentation is very difficult for any small size company to maintain. It is something that I evaluated during the 30 day trial and I believe that all developers so do that before they buy. If the product or it's documentation is not up to your needs then you should look elsewhere (not directed at any one person). Alpha is not for everyone just as other products out there are not for everyone.

            I too with for the documentation to improve but I purchased Alpha and develop in it knowing it's limitations.
            Jeff Ryder

            Comment


              #51
              Re: How about a release?

              Originally posted by jpeltola View Post
              Well ok...most of them not so 'codeless'...but not sure if you can build apps without any knowledge about programming...

              But products like Iron Speed...CodeCharge..Wavemaker...Aware IM...AspRunner
              We are in the desktop V10 forum not the application server forum so I thought that you were referring to desktop development platforms that were out there. It seems you are referring to browser/web based development platforms.
              Jeff Ryder

              Comment


                #52
                Re: How about a release?

                Originally posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
                ...Many people have a hard time following the videos and applying it to their own applications.
                ...
                I do have to say, that so far at least - in my own experience, implementing the new web features in v10 is exactly as easy as Selwyn demonstrates in his videos. Step back for a moment and think of it. In a typical video, Selwyn creates (and/or references) one or more grids and applies incredibly powerful AJAX powered features in 3-4 minutes, all while explaining as he goes. That's a hell of a sales pitch! And it actually works! As an example, I have a grid with conditional images and a row expander to another grid, which also has conditional images and conditionally displayed buttons and a collapsible linked content section grid with a row expander to another grid. Yikes! And all with no performance hit thanks to the codeless AJAX. Even I'm impressed.
                Peter
                AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

                [email protected]
                https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


                Comment


                  #53
                  Re: How about a release?

                  Originally posted by jpeltola View Post
                  But products like Iron Speed...CodeCharge..Wavemaker...Aware IM...AspRunner
                  Yeah, they're competing products all right, but are they "better"?
                  Last edited by Peter.Greulich; 09-11-2009, 05:56 PM. Reason: typo
                  Peter
                  AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

                  [email protected]
                  https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


                  Comment


                    #54
                    Re: How about a release?

                    Originally posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
                    Yeah, they're competing product all right, but are they "better"?
                    No no...i'm not saying that... A5 v10 is the easiest way to achieve some great results...

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Re: How about a release?

                      Originally posted by jpeltola View Post
                      Actually....while still waiting my beta...i had lots of time to search alternatives...and there actually are lots... so its not that monumental...
                      Jukka,

                      I wrote a paper on software choices read mine and then give me yours I'll Post it.

                      Nick
                      Nicholas Wieland
                      LedgerSuite.com Corp
                      [email protected]
                      http://www.ledgersuite.com

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Re: How about a release?

                        Originally posted by jpeltola View Post
                        Well ok...most of them not so 'codeless'...but not sure if you can build apps without any knowledge about programming...

                        But products like Iron Speed...CodeCharge..Wavemaker...Aware IM...AspRunner
                        Ya lost me. Are these alternatives to A5 with, what you believe, to be better documentation? Or, are these simply alternatives?

                        Selwyn is asking for examples of documentation that you believe gets the job done. In other words, specifics!
                        TYVM :) kenn

                        Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Re: How about a release?

                          what alternative products are you considering?

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Re: How about a release?

                            Originally posted by NicholasWieland View Post
                            Jukka,

                            I wrote a paper on software choices read mine and then give me yours I'll Post it.

                            Nick
                            Hello. I wanted to thank Nick for providing the link and writing a very nice article on why AlphaFive. Good stuff.

                            I feel compelled to add "a few" comments to this discussion. :)

                            I've seen very good technology come and go in the many years I've been involved in I.T. To make a long story short, the bottom line is - the best technology often doesn't win in the market place. I think AlphaFive is one of the few exceptions to that premise.

                            Example from personal experience. I used to work for a company called Forte Software. It was a stellar, productive development product; very innovative when it came out. Great programming language, powerful multi-tiered distributed runtime and management environment built-in; a great example of a true IDE. And actually it had really good documentation in the form of manuals, back when printed manuals still came with software. The product was designed primarily by Paul Butterworth, who had previously created the Ingres database product, and most recently founded AmberPoint. (Here is info on Butterworth if you're interested: http://www.infoworld.com/t/architect...utterworth-575)

                            I was hired as a technical sales rep (my first foray into sales, after many years programming). Forte was a very high end product, and pretty expensive. I thought it was going to take the corporate development world by storm.

                            After some exciting initial success, the product and the company struggled. (Why it struggled - is a topic for a different thread.) To cut to the chase, Sun Microsystems bought the Forte company, where the technology went nowhere and has since disappeared off the face of the earth. It was a real shame. (But Paul and the other owner/executives did get rich from the sale of the company.)

                            One of the (many) points to the story is, having great documentation didn't help the product be successful in the marketplace. Again let me emphasize, the documentation was really good IMHO, the best I've seen for any product, before or since. I'm sure others here know of similar stories about other products.

                            In some conceptual respects, AlphaFive reminds me of the Forte product, though of course there are several differences. AlphaFive is a well thought out product and it deserves the success it has had, and more. Fortunately, since AlphaFive has been around since, 1982 (I think ?), it is not likely going to disappear of the face of the earth anytime soon.

                            AlphaFive has gotten me excited about software again, and I'm looking forward to the release of V10, and beyond.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Re: How about a release?

                              Originally posted by Lou Milone View Post
                              Hello. I wanted to thank Nick for providing the link and writing a very nice article on why AlphaFive. Good stuff.

                              I feel compelled to add "a few" comments to this discussion. :)

                              I've seen very good technology come and go in the many years I've been involved in I.T. To make a long story short, the bottom line is - the best technology often doesn't win in the market place. I think AlphaFive is one of the few exceptions to that premise.

                              Example from personal experience. I used to work for a company called Forte Software. It was a stellar, productive development product; very innovative when it came out. Great programming language, powerful multi-tiered distributed runtime and management environment built-in; a great example of a true IDE. And actually it had really good documentation in the form of manuals, back when printed manuals still came with software. The product was designed primarily by Paul Butterworth, who had previously created the Ingres database product, and most recently founded AmberPoint. (Here is info on Butterworth if you're interested: http://www.infoworld.com/t/architect...utterworth-575)

                              I was hired as a technical sales rep (my first foray into sales, after many years programming). Forte was a very high end product, and pretty expensive. I thought it was going to take the corporate development world by storm.

                              After some exciting initial success, the product and the company struggled. (Why it struggled - is a topic for a different thread.) To cut to the chase, Sun Microsystems bought the Forte company, where the technology went nowhere and has since disappeared off the face of the earth. It was a real shame. (But Paul and the other owner/executives did get rich from the sale of the company.)

                              One of the (many) points to the story is, having great documentation didn't help the product be successful in the marketplace. Again let me emphasize, the documentation was really good IMHO, the best I've seen for any product, before or since. I'm sure others here know of similar stories about other products.

                              In some conceptual respects, AlphaFive reminds me of the Forte product, though of course there are several differences. AlphaFive is a well thought out product and it deserves the success it has had, and more. Fortunately, since AlphaFive has been around since, 1982 (I think ?), it is not likely going to disappear of the face of the earth anytime soon.

                              AlphaFive has gotten me excited about software again, and I'm looking forward to the release of V10, and beyond.
                              Lou thanks for taking the time share your views

                              your comment

                              AlphaFive has gotten me excited about software again, and I'm looking forward to the release of V10, and beyond.


                              is something we are hearing from a number of beta testers and that is obviously very encouraging for entire Alpha Community.

                              re the topic of documentation

                              I went to the dictionary are found this definition

                              instructions, comments, and information for using a particular piece or system of computer software or hardware

                              Even the definition is a multi-faceted statement.

                              Firstly we take this topic very seriously. Think about it - we have invested Millions of dollars to make Alpha Five a world class product. We want people to get up to speed as easily and efficiently as possible - after all it is an important dimension of the product.

                              At its heart, Alpha Five is a development tool that allows folks like you to develop a myriad of applications, each of which is pretty unique (order entry, inventory, student tracking and reporting, patient information, church etc etc)

                              Because of the inherent flexibility required in a tool like Alpha Five v10 , you need to end up with a tool that is vast in its scope (reporting tools, form tools, wizards, browse tools, language tools, hooks to external tools and environment services, etc etc) and therein lies the challenge.

                              Think about the following
                              • Some people learn better with videos
                              • Some people learn better with printed materials
                              • Some people are more interested in tutorials
                              • Some people are more interested in reference materials

                              ETC


                              There is no Universal way that suits everyone

                              Another challenge is that our design goal is to let people do really powerful stuff without programming and that attracts a certain category of user/developer

                              On the other hand, especially in v10, you can do serious programming and coding if you want to ( for examle there are well over 70 new events in just in v10 grid components -both client and server side - which can trigger custom xbasic or javascript. Also on the server side, folks with SQL backgrounds can mix SQL programming with Xbasic. ) This in turns means that Alpha Five is attracting folks who are heavy duty developers as well.

                              The documentation requirements of these groups of users is obviously not always the same

                              Another point I would like to make is the following.

                              There have been comments about providing tutorial like examples for every function in xbasic. There are thousands of functions in xbasic - some of those functions where designed as customer facing functions and some where built for internal use (since much of Alpha Five itself is in fact written in xbasic)

                              The customer facing functions are fully documented and then we had a choice - don't make all the internal use functions (which can save developers a boat load of time) available to Alpha Developers because the documentation on those is not as extensive OR make them available to everyone because they can be extremely useful, albeit to a relatively small number of developers. We decided to do the later.

                              Re the Wiki - some folks have been unenthusiastic about it in concept (since it has not been exposed or officially announced.)

                              We don't believe the Wiki is some kind of panacea and more importantly we recognize that the Wiki is not "content" - its power lies in it being a single point of reference for written and video materials and that is optimized for search. The other power of the Wiki is that allows folks in the Alpha community to contribute knowledge, tips, hints, tutorials, videos, case studies etc at precisely the right point - so someone who want help in a given area will likely find this help easily

                              Finally - we are open to practical / specific suggestions - email me please at [email protected]

                              Suggestions could be things that Alpha should do to make the learning and the using of Alpha Five easier and more efficient

                              Or, suggestions could be tutorials/videos that developers or users have developed or want to develop themselves and want to make broadly available as part of the product offering

                              Thanks
                              Richard Rabins
                              Co Chairman
                              Alpha Software

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Re: How about a release?

                                Since I am one of those who value documentation I would like to make a few comments.

                                First, for me I dont require a paper version of documentation.

                                Second, A5 seems to be somewhat unusual, at least im my opinion, in that for such a mature product, with a sizeable developer base there is a lack of 3rd party reference materials. For example I use Crystal Reports, and at least a few persons publishing books on this niche product. That means what we get from Alpha is what we need to depend on, its our only documentation source.

                                Third, I am new to A5 coming from a MS Visual Studio and .Net experience. While I can stay there, I did want to expand my the solutions I could offer customers. I have great hopes for the A5 reporting module.

                                Fourth, as an example, what is NetMailer, its in the documentation, but I cant seem to find it v9? Is it now AlphaMailer?

                                Finally, I am an event,properties, method, object kind of programmer. Perhaps I am just new to A5 and need to spend more time in the documentation. Still it would be nice to be able to quickly and cleanly find the form events and drill through those events for the applicable properties and methods and see a brief example for syntax. For example, I noticed the '->' symbol commonly used and I really struggled to find what it meant and how to use it in the supplied documentation. It just should not be as hard as it was to find.

                                I say this knowing those experts will any 'dummy' should be able to recognize this symbol and find its use, but this 'dummy' struggled and those kind of experiences make the learning curve steeper than I believe is necessary.

                                So closes my final comments on the documentation issue.
                                Regards,

                                John W.
                                www.CustomReportWriters.net

                                Comment

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