WiKI serious shortcomings

[DaveM]

Re: WiKI serious shortcomings

many times I work with no web access(plane, friends house overnight, antiquated hotels, during a rain while fishing, race track, etc). The wiki is no positive for me and having looked there am not impressed at all.

We will see if it gets better.


.

[Al Buchholz]

Re: WiKI serious shortcomings

al, i know where to set it, but it's the local help source not being updated that bothers me.

or from v10 itself. I'm not sure how much they want users to find it.

gary

I thought I was replying to Mr. Parker.. ie (Bill)

[martinwcole]

Re: WiKI serious shortcomings

For those of us who already went through the painful learning curve of finding things in the CHM, the WIKI presents a new and painful "unlearning" curve, as well as a new learning curve!!

Being a wee bit on the old and crotchety side (unlike Peter, hehe,) I hate stuff like this, and am known to grumble, sounding like Silas Marner according to my granddaughter.

So far, I have been able to find what I am looking for, but there is definitely a learning curve, and I hope they keep working to refine it - like permitting the parentheses, etc.

[MikeC]

Re: WiKI serious shortcomings

Unless Alpha can bring across all the code snippets and samples from the messageboard into the WIKI I have hardly any use for it...I can find almost everything between the messageboard and the online help file...and relatively fast.

When I cannot find it then I look at the What's New for various versions, the release note, then lastly at the WIKI. Apparently the WIKI is the only help file that will be updated which, in time, means I will have to learn the ins and outs of that as well....considering the time it took to get good at using the online help I am not looking forward to this at all.

I guess it comes down to more time looking/learning how to look, and less time helping out.....:(

[jkletrovets]

Re: WiKI serious shortcomings

....into the WIKI I have hardly any use for it...I can find almost everything between the messageboard and the online help file...and relatively fast.

I fall into this same category. To me it is completely counterintuitive and not user friendly.


The irony to me is that if the effort that was put into creating the wiki had been put into creating an Alpha driven website containing all the same information.....I can EASILY see it being more useful / easy to use. PLUS......you could not of asked for a better sales tool for the program itself.

[CALocklin]

Re: WiKI serious shortcomings

Has anyone added something to a Wiki page yet? How did that go? I come across examples that don't work. I'm wondering how we will be able to correct them.

Fortunately or unfortunately depending on how you see it, all changes apparently need to be submitted and approved before they will be included.

I've sent in at least one suggestion and it has been incorporated. It took a bit longer than I expected but it did get added. I think I sent in a second one but can't recall what it was.

[gkeramidas]

Re: WiKI serious shortcomings

i'm curious where the impetus for this project came from. i just don't see developers clamoring for this and why it's being forced upon everybody. there was nothing wrong with the local help system and it needs to stay local.

i don't install alpha in the cloud, i install it on my pc and that's where the help file belongs.

[Steve Wood]

Re: WiKI serious shortcomings

I still use the old help 95% of the time. The Wiki has potential but needs a lot of work. It's too bad it started out as a port from the old help system. I'd rather see it built from scratch even though I know that would take forever. It's odd to look at a new Wiki and use functions in web app where the documentation clearly says this is for Desktop only. I know its wrong.

I too would like a function index, broken in to broad groups.If there is a Favorites setting somewhere, I've missed it. I'd really like if it allowed me to edit the pages, add my own comments.

[CALocklin]

Re: WiKI serious shortcomings

...I'd really like if it allowed me to edit the pages, add my own comments.

I've [sort of] taken care of that problem for myself Steve. I purchased a program for building .chm Help files (I needed it for other things) and am slowly building an "A5 Function Notes" help file for myself. Eventually I expect to make it available to other A5 users but it's only just getting started at this point.

It is based on my free A5v5 Help file (which actually includes many functions from v6, 7, and 8 as well) but, unfortunately, the old help file was a .HLP file and I have no way to convert it to a .CHM file. As a result, things from the old file are only very slowly being copied to the new file.

IF ANYONE HAS A GOOD .HLP TO .CHM CONVERSION PROGRAM AND IS WILLING TO HELP OUT, PLEASE CONTACT ME.

New entries will be more limited. My only intentions for new entries are to:

1. Make it easier to find specific functions by providing a better variety of keywords.
Example: Instead of just "remove" for <ptr>.Remove(), include other words like "delete" and "erase" because I assume that someone is looking for the function because they don't know what the actual function name is to start with - only what they want it to do. (This was also a key reason for using my original A5v5 Help file.)

2. Add special comments to existing functions about how they should be used, limitations, etc. This is the only really "new" aspect of my new version - no emphasis on syntax, etc. that already exists in other help files. (see attachment for a screenshot of one of my more complex "special comments")

The newer entries should NOT be expected to contain syntax or any comments/examples that are already in the A5 help or WIKI files.

I suspect that the WIKI may solve some of the issues in #2 IF users will submit additional info and that doesn't become overwhelming for the guys at Alpha.

My real problem is with item #1. I get the impression that they don't really understand how difficult it can be to find a function when you don't know what the function is but only have an idea that it should exist. For example, run a *search* on "delete" and try to find the File.Remove() function.
- You cannot find it that way in the WIKI. (At least I couldn't find it.)
- You can find it in the .chm help file IF you don't mind carefully looking through over 400 hits - and you're lucky enough not to miss it.
- You cannot find it in the .chm help file if you run an Index search.

The index search returns fewer hits because it is based on keywords - that's great because it should be a more focused search BUT they didn't put enough thought and time into adding synonyms and related terms as keywords.

BTW, my original A5v5_Help file (actually the A5v4 version) was created because at the time all Alpha had was a PDF file. I simply copied the text in their PDF file to my .HLP file. It was a long and tedious process just to copy the text and add keywords so I understand that adding all those keywords takes time but it would be a HUGE benefit for users.

If anyone wants to see what I'm talking about, install my A5v5 Help file and run a search on "delete". There are 31 hits that are directly related to "deleting/removing/clearing/erasing/etc." something and 25 do not have the word "delete" in them.

BTW, for those who have read this far, if you have a pet peeve about finding a specific function or would like to submit some comments about a function, I suggest submitting them to the WIKI first. If they don't get included there, send them to me and I will include them in my file as long as they are valid comments.

[MikeC]

Re: WiKI serious shortcomings

Of course I agree....but

For example, run a *search* on "delete" and try to find the File.Remove() function.
- You cannot find it that way in the WIKI. (At least I couldn't find it.)
- You can find it in the .chm help file IF you don't mind carefully looking through over 400 hits - and you're lucky enough not to miss it.
- You cannot find it in the .chm help file if you run an Index search.

When this happens to me and cannot think of any other synonyms at the time, I start looking at the more inclusive lists such as file functions/methods, table functions/methods, etc. and can then just browse the list and usually will come up with what I need.....

It is definitely something that one has to learn to do and I find that many users here just don't care to....they want it to be easy and not have to spend any time learning how to do this. Given that it should be easy, I still am in awe of the half dozen or so people I have offered an hour or so to teach how I do it (at no charge) have never taken me up on it!! Admirable that they want to learn how on their own, but then I feel they have no right to complain either! :) As a result I have not offered this to anyone for quite a while and now have gotten too busy to do so.

[CALocklin]

Re: WiKI serious shortcomings

Mike,

While I basically agree, my issue is in the second item (new emphasis added):

IF you don't mind carefully looking through over 400 hits - and you're lucky enough not to miss it.

When there are that many lines to look through it can be really hard to find the one you need. (The 31 found in a 'delete' search in my own help file is bad enough.) Yes, it may be there but it also may not be and it's really hard to find something in a large list when you don't know for sure if it's there and don't realize that a different name was used. Looking for synonyms helps but it would be even better if the synonyms were added as keywords in the help file itself. That way an Index search could be used instead of a regular search that finds every instance of a word even though the function has nothing to do with the word you are searching on.

I'm not sure how a WIKI works so I'm not sure if this is applicable to them or not.

[MikeC]

Re: WiKI serious shortcomings

In total agreement Cal. I wish I did not have to spend the time to learn how to search the help/messageboard as well.....and of course you're right in that when you cannot narrow your search down to 50 or less, it does take an hour or so at least to skim the help/messageboard for the answer/function.....and hopefully did not miss it when doing so! I have at times spent several hours searching for an answer....and usually find it...but sure do wish it was easier!!

This last part is for sure something that needs to be addressed, not only in the help file but also in the messageboard searches (and it seems in the Wiki as well).