v12 Release Notes

[kkfin]

Re: v12 Release Notes

You were unnecessarily rude. There is nothing "factual" about calling someone's post "a commercial presentation" when it clearly is not. I am sorry that you don't understand that. Some posts ago you yourself were talking about "respect". You have a strange way of showing this in practice. Seems that it shows only when it suits you. DaCosta has a different opinion. Respect THAT.
There is no professionalism in being discourteous. This forum is a place where discussion is allowed, and we all may have different opinions. I would rather say a hearty Welcome to DaCosta as to start belittling his first post just because he differs in opinion with you. That is very weak behavior. Even on the internet where anonymity is the standard, there is value in politeness.

I think you are not on right track yet.

You don't see the difference between opinion and making commercial presentation. First post... Wake up Marcel.

[mronck]

Re: v12 Release Notes

I believe that many present Alpha users are ultimately worried about the continued viability of investing time & developing resources within the Alpha product line-up, IF it moves to a "subscription only model." ~ A subscription model that precludes it's use (based on price) by a majority of it's present user base. It's a confidence thing. And this "confidence thing" is what already keeps many "mainstream" developers (and their clients) from adopting Alpha based solutions. ~RISK

It's ironic how so many other products (at present) are moving towards a "free to develop with, pay only when you commercialize" sales model. In the tech industry, nearly all of the present "big players" either "gave it away" or continue to "give some of it away." ~ That's how they became a "number one player."

~Google, Microsoft, Oracle w/ MySQL are a few of the "biggies" that come to mind. Apple is no exception really either..... The reason they succeeded is they were focused on selling entertainment, not work. Ultimately, they were backed by the entertainment industry who refuses to give free content away. (Which is also incidentally a primary reason most of us are using Microsoft to "develop on", instead of Apple.) ~ Apple (until fairly recently) was "all about entertainment." NOT BUSINESS/WORK...

Come on now Robert... like the mainstream software manufacturers are that trustworthy, and Alpha Software would not be. You must know better then that. Microsoft has skipped complete development product lines in its history leaving developers completely empty handed! Or is Microsoft not "mainstream" ?
"Trust" has little to do with "Mainstream". What becomes the defacto "standard" in any type of industry is driven by sometimes very strange and unexpected mechanisms that can't be easily put in the corner of "trust".

Alpha Software is providing us with products for who knows how long where other companies have by long collapsed and are gone. So what is exactly "trust"?

I "trust" Alpha Management to take the right decisions when it comes to the future of the product. And when I do not find myself in the same vision, it simply is time to move somewhere else. Until now, they have always provided exactly what I needed, and most of the time vastly more. They have a vision, and you may disapprove, or you may have a completely different vision yourself, that's all fine and well. But that does not say anything about the decision itself. That might be the best solution for the company in the given circumstances.

A few posts back you spoke about a "reasonable price". Now Robert... .what exactly is THAT? What is reasonable is all a matter of perception. Have a look at a manufacturer as OutSystems. Any idea what THEY charge??
You would be surprised. What you pay there for the "full options" license per year can easily provide for a lifetime of Alpha Five. So what exactly is "reasonable" and compared to exactly who? And who says that such a comparison is reasonable to begin with? Again, DaCosta made no stupid post. Read again what he writes. He concludes the price is "peanuts". And he is actually right (depending on the circumstances). I have made extensive calculations myself a few years back and the result of my calculations was, that the total expense of a specific application developed in Alpha Five would be 14 times higher when using the competitive (market standard....) product. What is reasonable depends mostly on the circumstances.

The point is however, that we are on the verge of a break in what we are used to with Alpha Five. And brings specific problems and I am not saying that I agree with everything and I am also not saying there are no questions anymore to be answered. There are. But those answers will come in time, I am sure.

In the meanwhile someone wrote me and actually said something very wise (as I see it). He said: "why not split the subscription in one for desktop, one for web and one for mobile? You could then take a subscription on either one of them or any combination of them". And I agree with him that this could be the way to go. I don't need mobile right now, but may very well in the future. Why then purchase a subscription that has costs in it now? That does not feel comfortable to me. My customers also don't pay me for what they think to need next year.

[Scott_Walker]

Re: v12 Release Notes

The only constant is change.

I think either a subscription (Annual License) where you pay for something each month and when you stop paying you can no longer use is fair.

I think purchasing a license where it gives you perpetual use of a product is fair.

Each can make sense given the right combination of customer/supplier(product).

You can buy a house (perpetual use) or rent an apartment (you stop paying, no right to further use). Both make sense.


I think the problem here is the market is changing. Alpha is targeting a different customer base. Alpha is changing the model they use to charge for their product. Long time customers for whom the old model made financial sense based upon their use/financial benefit from the product may find that the new model does not make financial sense to them.

I think Alpha software (based upon their currently targeted customer base) should move to a subscription model. I think they should also recognize the value of Long Time Customers and make accommodations to keep them.

In the following example I am just using some sample numbers...the details can be worked out:

For example, say the annual license is $1000 for the whole development platform (desktop & web). For a professional using it to development many applications or one large application for a big company, that is nothing. The tires on my car cost me $1200 last week. I went to the dentist and had a broken crown replaced, $1100. If a NEW potential Alpha customer does not see the value equation working out for them, fine, they don't go for the Annual License, their decision.

Now for Long Time Customers:

Offer a desktop only version and a web only version or the whole thing.

Full Product Annual License: $1000
Desktop Annual License: $500
Web Annual License: $500

If you previously bought/licensed version 11: 10% discount

If you peviously bought/licensded version 10 & 11: 15% discount

If you previously bought/licensed version 9 & 10 &11: 20% discount

All the way to: You have previously bought/licensed every version since Alpha V ver 1: 50% discount


So a long time developer, who only wants the desktop side, and has been buying Alpha for a Long Time (10+ years)
would pay $250 for his Annual License subscription. Even if you were only using it to develop software for one paying customers, this is affordable.

This is what I do with my customers. Old customers pay a lot less annually to me then a new customer. Makes paying me each year much more palatable to them when you tell them they are paying one half as much for that years Annual Fee than a new customer.

Just one idea of many.

Regards,

Scott

[jkwrpc]

Re: v12 Release Notes

I appreciate the information and discussion. I will watching to see the shape licensing finally takes in v12. I can only speak for myself but indications are I will probably find myself in a dilemma. My problem is simply which way will I go. Being comfortable with MS development tools, the question will be will I stay with Alpha or abandon it? At its core is the availability of things like this MS subscription for under $450.

https://mspartner.microsoft.com/en/u...-contents.aspx

Believe me, I am not trying to persuade anyone this is the way to go. MS has issues and changes product lines/technology so often you always seem to have learn something new. It can drive any reasonably sane person to the point insanity. I had subscribed to this for a number of years before coming to Alpha. Yes, I did come to Alpha but new licensing changes that impact my ability (costs) to develop solutions will force me to rethink that decision.

[DaveM]

Re: v12 Release Notes

I will begin here.

Max DeCosta made some valid points. His math is roughly correct and the same math I have used before. Now, let's break it down a bit. First, it does not equate to a small developer making an app for a small business where the funds are limited and their company payroll is less for 3 employees than Max is for the year. Yes they need the app, but 40,000.00 would severely hamper their ability to stay in business. How much can you charge them and get the job? Yes, once they get the app, they will become more productive and make more money(hopefully).

I do not and Never had a problem with the product. I do have a problem with the subscription plan. Over the past year or two, NOBODY has fully explained it to me or(to the best of my knowledge) put all of it in print. There seems to be NO CONTRACT. Hmmm... Marcel figured it out with his inborn sens of business that you get the subscription, use it as long as you want and maybe make a few payments. and THEN STOP PAYING! That is not fair to Alpha.

Richard also said that v11 has bugs. He is right! I never used software that had no bugs. The closest one to no bugs is Dealer Automations package that I helped build. It had plenty of bugs at first, but now it runs flawlessly(after 14 years) in all versions of windows from 95 - win8. The other almost no bugs app is sold for 199 wor windows version. 99.00 upgrades. Some here will recognize this product just from the pricing. It is blindingly fast too, but you have to write code.

I still need to be able to print a line down a 25" pieve of paper with no page breaks. I can do it with Crystal Reports and several other competing products. I can get no more than 18.75 inches and that is sporadic. I throw this in wherever Richard or Selwyn might see it.

One other competing is free to make and distribute for free for up to 10 concurrent users(finished product), then it steps 3 more levels with a little more stuff and way more users to unlimited. If alpha could think of a way to break the subscription into several size/steps it could work.

Suggestion:
Per Year Basis.
Whole Package/Maxpackage = 1499 gets all everything
Webside/MaxWeb = 999. No destop but all for the web
Webside/SmallWeb = 799 No extra packages and no desktop
Desktop/MaxDesk = 699 All Destop addons with runtime
Desktop/MinDesk = 399 with runtime but No add ons

Anything less than this would just be alacarte - no fun
This is just a quick thought to keep people signing up and keep everyone onboard. I preloaded web side a bit because I know they are spending a bunch on that and the action for everyone is more.

[mronck]

Re: v12 Release Notes

The only constant is change.

I think either a subscription (Annual License) where you pay for something each month and when you stop paying you can no longer use is fair.

I think purchasing a license where it gives you perpetual use of a product is fair.

Each can make sense given the right combination of customer/supplier(product).

You can buy a house (perpetual use) or rent an apartment (you stop paying, no right to further use). Both make sense.


I think the problem here is the market is changing. Alpha is targeting a different customer base. Alpha is changing the model they use to charge for their product. Long time customers for whom the old model made financial sense based upon their use/financial benefit from the product may find that the new model does not make financial sense to them.

I think Alpha software (based upon their currently targeted customer base) should move to a subscription model. I think they should also recognize the value of Long Time Customers and make accommodations to keep them.

In the following example I am just using some sample numbers...the details can be worked out:

For example, say the annual license is $1000 for the whole development platform (desktop & web). For a professional using it to development many applications or one large application for a big company, that is nothing. The tires on my car cost me $1200 last week. I went to the dentist and had a broken crown replaced, $1100. If a NEW potential Alpha customer does not see the value equation working out for them, fine, they don't go for the Annual License, their decision.

Now for Long Time Customers:

Offer a desktop only version and a web only version or the whole thing.

Full Product Annual License: $1000
Desktop Annual License: $500
Web Annual License: $500

If you previously bought/licensed version 11: 10% discount

If you peviously bought/licensded version 10 & 11: 15% discount

If you previously bought/licensed version 9 & 10 &11: 20% discount

All the way to: You have previously bought/licensed every version since Alpha V ver 1: 50% discount


So a long time developer, who only wants the desktop side, and has been buying Alpha for a Long Time (10+ years)
would pay $250 for his Annual License subscription. Even if you were only using it to develop software for one paying customers, this is affordable.

This is what I do with my customers. Old customers pay a lot less annually to me then a new customer. Makes paying me each year much more palatable to them when you tell them they are paying one half as much for that years Annual Fee than a new customer.

Just one idea of many.

Regards,

Scott

This all makes perfect sense to me, and if I were in Alpha's management, I would go this way. Maybe a bit modified, but.....

[DaveM]

Re: v12 Release Notes

I could have carried it on a bit further, but it gives all a bit of what they want, I think. Yes, it could be modified some.

One thing to mention. One can sign up for this forum with different views and an unknown person or I could sign up under a different name with a different email and be a complete alpha help or detractor. To say, we all need to be a bit wary of new comer until we know who they really are.

I have been in that 120,000 a year bracket and was for many years(until retirement), I still watched what I spent or I could not retire. Also, I always was more careful how I spent a companies money than I was my own. I bought inventory for our car lots and did not buy some that I may have bought had it been my own money. I have purchased many thousands of cars and trucks for resale on all levels. First rule was knowing what I could sell it for and then determine the price I could pay to make a profit.

"Bought Right is Half Sold"

[mronck]

Re: v12 Release Notes

..... you get the subscription, use it as long as you want and maybe make a few payments. and THEN STOP PAYING! That is not fair to Alpha.....

No Dave, that indeed would not be "fair" but it actually IS a possibility built-in in the agreement where Alpha offers "a full, 90-day money back guarantee".
So that situation actually COULD occur. And I used that example to help understand that it would not be reasonable to offer unlimited perpetual use of the product under that circumstance.
So this all adds up to the idea that a subscription is a situation where you get the right to use the product as long as you pay for it.
Ends your subscription, and you do not renew, then also ends your use.
Alpha is showing goodwill by allowing longer use but by no means this is a reasonable obligation of some kind.

I do think however, that there could be more flexibility in the subscription model. But since this is not new only for us, but also for Alpha, let's give them some time to think this all over.
v12 is not there yet, and that means there is time to maybe bring a bit more balance in the model.

Scott Walkers post is right on the mark (that is: as I see it).

[DaveM]

Re: v12 Release Notes

We had our software as a sale, lease to own and rental by the month.

sale is a no brainer infinite license number given at beginning.
lease and rental license numbers had a different code where it shut down after short period after the due dates and the client had to call us for a new number. If they had paid, the software was able to go to the internet and update itself for another 30 days. After I left, they were able to further it for more automation.

We also had to handle some other items where a dealer(cars, boats, planes, etc) needed newer reports to print their forms for delivery. They purchased those on an as needed basis. Pricing went from 35.00 to 200.00 unless they were custome. That made more money than the software. example: I could make a bankers contract in about 3 hours from scratch. It sold for 100.00 and was needed by 700+- clients, but it was already made. They ordered, downloaded and they could print it accurately every time.

Alpha is trying to do that with their add ons - good idea if enough people want/need them. Great idea - make it once and sell it several hundred times or more.

We used VB that needed several add ons for our use. Crystal Reports(full version), and several custom modules to help developement save some time. Total cost was about 4,000 back in 1997 - 1998. We were never on a subscription plan.

I am trying to give Alpha some ideas here, so jump in with any ideas please. We have all had similar experiences or different?

[DaveM]

Re: v12 Release Notes

One big issue I see with the subscription is, it is not the same perpetually. I agree they can't do the same all the time, but I do not want to sign in now at some price and later it triples because they came out with a newer version!

It should be the same for the whole period with all upgrades and updates. It should not go up exponentially for the next one. I could see a 2,3 or 4 & increase each year. My government check(based on the economy) rose 1.67% this year over last year, but we don't get a raise every year.

I might add that the car business to dealers is down due to their sales being down and that affects me. That also affects anybody selling to them.

[SNusa]

Re: v12 Release Notes

If you all keep pushing the "monthly subscription only model that expires the dev. tool once payments cease to continue", real problems will follow. ~ And you could end up using different development tools in 5 years or less. ~ Where has all the common sense gone?

A model like this does not build commitment. It generates "abandonment." (Possibly @ $49./mo it might work, but you'd have developers only paying in monthly, only when they were actively using this tool on a project. ~ "Nickle & Diming" ~ And that won't work for Alpha. There's no stability for them under that scenario.)

Even if Microsoft were able to pull something like this off, it doesn't matter. Microsoft has "figuratively speaking" ~10,000+ the stability of Alpha. MS can get away with "making significant mistakes" & still recover.... (VISA, Windows ME, and possibly Windows 8 comes to mind here.) ~ Historically, every other MS OS release tends to be a "failure." win95/98 good, winMe horrible, XP good, Vista horrible etc....

Anyone who makes an analogy between Microsoft & Alphasoftware in terms of stability & industry "strength" (and as to "what they can/can't get away with" needs to have a psyche. evaluation.) ~ The mere fact that all these discussions keep popping up on the forum tells the story best..... (Also, take a look at your email/inbox as a reminder as to "how hard a sell Alpha subscriptions already are."

If you don't offer something that customers are comfortable purchasing, they wont purchase. So taking away "sales option B" won't close the deal for most. It will result in lost sales income & a shrinking user base..... I'm quite certain that Alpha can't afford & nor do they want an outcome like that!

[Raymond Lyons]

Re: v12 Release Notes

This thread has gotten weird and thus maybe not worth following anymore. But Richard has yet to answer my questions in post # 126, and I for one would like explicit answers.

Are you saying V12 will still have forms and so on (essentially, say, V10.5 or V11 on the desktop side) but also more xbasic, reporting and lots of "web components that can (now) be used on the desktop" where "desktop" = not browser based desktop? ... [Or] ...will the V12 "desktop" have to be browser based? Thanks for any clarification

Raymond Lyons

[SNusa]

Re: v12 Release Notes

This thread has gotten weird and thus maybe not worth following anymore. But Richard has yet to answer my questions in post # 126, and I for one would like explicit answers.

If you don't hear back from Richard, send a PM to Ted Giles. ~ He's working with (evaluating I suspect) the beta. He stated "the desktop is still there", as before...

~I'd really also like to know what the heck happened with regards to IIS integration! I'm presently hearing references/rumors associating the web platform side with alternate solutions/services like "Amazon Cloud Services" instead.....

[forskare]

Re: v12 Release Notes

Your first post and this kind of text? Normally this kind of commercial presentation gets deleted from normal message boards.

Ken

{"Leave me alone i know what i'm doing"}

Hmmmm. OK, if you say so LOL

Since when does anyone need to be on "probation" before they can write a post where some might not agree. What kind of baloney is that? Max has every right to make his case. Further, I don't see any commercialization (I don't call it that) when others state their qualifications and experience. At any rate, the comment was not warranted, IMHO.

[forskare]

Re: v12 Release Notes

Are you saying V12 will still have forms and so on (essentially, say, V10.5 or V11 on the desktop side) but also more xbasic, reporting and lots of "web components that can (now) be used on the desktop" where "desktop" = not browser based desktop? ... [Or] ...will the V12 "desktop" have to be browser based? Thanks for any clarification
Raymond Lyons

I doubt Richard will respond to this question for an obvious reason. Desktop apps can be created using only web components. The only thing I'm using the CP for right now is creating the tables and reports. I haven't tried letters or address labels and, actually, one does not even need to create the tables first. That can be done when creating a dialog Web component. The desktop is changing and because v11 will continue to be sold, I believe it is because Alpha needs to support the current desktop structure. I have no idea how in-depth the new desktop will be but it will be using the same web components on a stand alone computer without going on the web, thus the Desktop, or as Marcel name it, the Web Component Desktop. Furthermore, once you've created a WCD, it can be used on the web without any further structure changes.

One will probably still be able to create a form w/v12 for the purpose of embedding a web component but by using the Tabbed UI (v11) or the Tabbed UX (v12) there is no need to use forms. Folks, this is why Alpha is going away from the desktop, AS IT IS NOW, to one where you will develop once and be able to deploy it on Mobile, Web or a stand alone/intranet computer/s. Once you can grasp this concept, it's a 'no brainer' and you begin to see the overall picture or direction where Alpha is heading.