Attention Desktop Developers

[mronck]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

I (for one) do not have the web component(of any kind) for v11. How are you supposed to make a grid?? There are still errors in making installs with these grids, no matter the method. Until alpha makes that possible with the needed information for installs, I am out.

This should be introduced into the list for alpha.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34898[/ATTACH]

I wonder where you get that idea from? I am not aware of variations of the developer edition that would have, or would NOT have the web component design option?
This is what I read in the Alpha Software online shop:

Alpha Five Version v11 Developer Edition
For Building and Testing Desktop, Web, and Mobile Applications
The Alpha Five v11 Developer Edition enables you to rapidly create robust business applications that can run as Desktop, Web and Mobile applications (including iOS, Android and others).

Of course you "have the web component" Dave.... it is a standard feature of ANY v11 developer version. You don't need anything special, it's all in the version you have.
Just open the Web Projects Control Panel and all will come available to you.
However, when you first install it it might be that if you specified at install you would not use them it is not at once available but needs activation. Look for a way to make the WPCP visible that is all. If I say "activation" I do NOT mean electronic activation by Alpha. Just look for the function and tick it if needed.

As I have mentioned before, these errors in making installs can have several causes, like the errors that sometimes occur when trying to build a customer desktop install. Enough examples of those on this forum. That did not stop you to use the desktop side either did it. I don't know why people have ran into problems installing those solutions. I have not found any detailed cases, only general remarks that are non informative as to what is happening exactly at which point and what is the resulting error. These things tend to vary with the specific installation. Your own app may have specific installation requirements that mine could not have and vice versa. It is not good practice to "have heard about a problem" and instantly name them as "general show stopper". Instead what I have found on doing desktop research on this forum there are simply not many developers having traveled that road (what a pity!) and experience levels are low. Furthermore, people seem not very willing to put time into these types of development innovation but tend to rather want to stick to what they have and know. Understandable, but that says nothing about what the "new" technology has to offer, or what and where it starts to fail.

[jkwrpc]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Grid Deployment Issues

So far as I know I started reporting my problems with deploying grid components in a desktop app as far back as September 2012. I was using 10.5 at that time. Here is the link to that post. I have continually reported my findings in various threads since. I hope this eliminates the fact the problem was being experienced vs. rumors of a problem.

http://msgboard.alphasoftware.com/al...096#post623096

The core issue in v10.5 was how you deployed your app. If you needed to have an install program either a 3rd party or the native install maker the component failed to install properly. The component files would deploy (that is be copied to the system) but the runtime would not see it. Its like it (the runtime) was not registering it (the grid component) as part of the application.

Another fact, in 10.5 a few on the forum tried to help me track down the cause of the problem. We tried a variety of installs, install options, etc. and everyone had the same experience. In truth a fair bit of time was spent trying to resolve the mystery without success.

I gave up on using the grid component and create a form that held the same functionality as the grid component. I and others had invested too much time in trying to get something to work that could done in another way.

So installing using an install program was not working for myself or others. If you deploy your apps not using an install program, and use the developer version to setup the app on the clients system it would not be a problem. Again for clarity it was a problem if your deployment method is an install package of some flavor.

Has it been fixed in v11? I don't know. I have asked if anyone has given this a try in v11, and since there has not been an answer I take that to mean it has not yet been tried; at least by anyone currently active on the forum.

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Right now I'm stuck with the need to solve or to workaround it, and, as you confirm, the only way is to beg and cry and scream for a fix from the developers.
It looks like a chorus is raising up, and I want to join with all my far away voice.
Let's hope..

They won't address this. It's as old as Alpha Five. People (including me) have screamed and begged loudly in the past. But, to no avail. Several years ago I remember Jerry Brightbill said something along the lines of the problem lies at the core of the A5 engine and the cause has something to do with the scrolling/viewing aspect is the same code as the data retrieval aspect. I'm stating it somewhat incorrectly, but you get the idea. He also said that it would take one programmer 6-months to fix. My response was so get 6 programmers and fix it it in one month (or 2 programmers in 3-months, etc). Forget about it. Didn't happen, ain't gonna happen, not interested. End of story. But what they did instead, is add tons of new features to the browse - a.k.a. "sugar-coating". Don't get me wrong, the "new" and improved features where a nice edition, I use them myself. But the "fix" forever eludes us. That's why guys like Marcel have moved on, although John W's problem is a big problem - if that is still true for v11?

[Ray in Capetown]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Hi Marcel

What is the experience of those using grids for desktop with DEPLOYMENT to clients.
I've heard from some who've tried it and get failures.

HAVE you, as the question asked, deployed an installation using grids, at a client?.
If NOT then you aren't the person to whom the question was addressed.
Besides John who put in much effort to do exactly that, I know from speaking with Ted around then, that he was assisting with some testing and also published the failure.
Its not an install question nor whose chosen installer is the best. I just install A5 runtime like I would any app, create my shortcut on client desktops, and unzip my app on the server. No big deal either with emailing updates.

[forskare]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Has it been fixed in v11? I don't know. I have asked if anyone has given this a try in v11, and since there has not been an answer I take that to mean it has not yet been tried; at least by anyone currently active on the forum.

Hi John, while I don't know the answer, I didn't get to 1st base because Alpha's install is made up of at least one old, old file and it would hang the creation of the install. Some had a way around it but I chose not to mess with it any further as my client has v11 installed on their machine. Selwyn said this may be the last version of an alpha install program since there were better 3rd party apps. One could say that perhaps your problem was due to this issue but since you tried a 3rd party installer, perhaps not. I've read not too long ago that some of the 3rd party files which Alpha uses are "past their prime". If so, that might have something to do with it. At any rate, I share your frustration.

I really like using the grids on the desktop but lately, I've run into a problem where the checkboxes do not appear on every row of the grid. I've also had a field lookup checkbox become unchecked resulting in recreating the lookup. This has happened 3 times in the last month. I'm to the point to where I must abandon the grids for now because 1) I don't have the time to keep redoing things and 2) there obviously is a problem to where I can't put this on a client's machine and then have to trouble shoot it after it's up and running.

I'm also considering starting a thread entitled, "Frustrations of an Alphaholic". I have no desire to rag on Alpha but I would like a complete product for which I've paid.

What Peter said is sadly true. Those of use who have been with Alpha for the last 20 tears or so, have seen this with every release of A5. There are plenty of past threads about this subject all through the years.

[mronck]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Hi Marcel

HAVE you, as the question asked, deployed an installation using grids, at a client?.
If NOT then you aren't the person to whom the question was addressed.
Besides John who put in much effort to do exactly that, I know from speaking with Ted around then, that he was assisting with some testing and also published the failure.
Its not an install question nor whose chosen installer is the best. I just install A5 runtime like I would any app, create my shortcut on client desktops, and unzip my app on the server. No big deal either with emailing updates.

Now, THAT was not exactly a very friendly post Ray. What happened? Did you have a bad day? Chased by a wildebeest or an angry elephant maybe?
Luckily, however, you don't get to decide who reacts and who doesn't since this is a free forum and I am living in a free country. Hurray !!

It must have struck you by now, that there are no frequent forum visitors that have installed desktop applications with web components running on it under v11 yet.
And since this is a v11 forum section, what happened under previous releases is not exactly conclusive, especially considering the huge difference that exists between v11 and older releases.
In the historical line of releases, v11 stands on its own. In A5 much can differ between different builds in the same version number, not to speak about different version numbers.

So, whilst we have no conclusions under v11 yet, let's not bash on Alpha Software for something we don't even know anything about other then old experiences with old releases. That really does not say much.
Repeating old experiences that have no relation whatever to the current release are not very fruitful.

Furthermore, the A5 installer is out of the equation since it is fair game anyway. It has been marked by Alpha Five itself and will be vanished in v12. That is not because it is working wonderfully. It has problems and flaws.

I am still building on my application, and it is not even ready by a long shot, so this will take a while. In the meanwhile maybe others will try to do this under v11. We had better wait and see what conclusions are drawn by those developers and then we can make some conclusions with real proof instead of shadows from the past. Alpha Software really does not deserve that.
Furthermore, I am quite sure that when the install should fail, Support will be there to help us out, since distributing an application with the runtime really is THE utmost basic requirement for Alpha. When THAT does not work, the platform is obsolete. I am quite sure when there are problems, Selwyn will step in and see to it that it gets resolved. I have read threads on this forum where that happened. I was amazed to see how brutal reactions towards Selwyn were when he tried to help, and am not surprised he did not answer back in that thread. I wouldn't have either.
Whatever functions or does not function, we still need to maintain a relationship based on mutual respect or otherwise the train will crash off track, serving nobody.

[Ray in Capetown]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Now, THAT was not exactly a very friendly post Ray. What happened? Did you have a bad day? Chased by a wildebeest or an angry elephant maybe?

No Marcel it was neither friendly nor unfriendly, just a fact with no acrimony whatsoever. I reply out of respect.
You are strongly advocating the use of an object, which to follow requires quite an investment in time for anyone who proceeds to replace their browses. When the only people who HAVE TRIED and distributed the application find that things that work on the development machine with developer no longer work on another machine with runtime - and not for lack of trying, could not discover why.

So you are still in the same position to advise on this as any number of others who like you, haven't tested it - but aren't giving their opinions.
Unfortunately it happens more often than need be that people read messages, that because of a need for brevity are low in explanation and get interpreted. The trick is not to add meaning to posts - because it's more than likely not what was intended. BTW this post contains no meaning other than the words.
Stick it to me my friend.
--Ray

[mronck]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

.....You are strongly advocating the use of an object, which to follow requires quite an investment in time for anyone who proceeds to replace their browses. When the only people who HAVE TRIED and distributed the application find that things that work on the development machine with developer no longer work on another machine with runtime - and not for lack of trying, could not discover why....

Again, this happened on older versions then v11, there really is no need of stressing that here AGAIN without ANY proof that it also is of relevance to version 11. This is the v11 forum section.

People who have used the embedded browse sometimes are in quite despair, as you can read in many posts. There really are not much quality alternatives to using the web components on the form to begin with. Furthermore, anybody who has worked with A5 over a few years will know, that the key to success in working with A5 often lies in the word "workarrounds". Now, ASSUMING (why am I doing that?) that the problems would still appear in v11 (what nobody knows or can prove until now) when using a developer version is the workaround for getting the component on the desktop distributed to your client, then maybe that is a small price to pay for a huge increase in function and power in the application, or even to have it function flawlessly to begin with. But again, we don't know of any problems.

With regards to time: somebody will have to put the time in to provide answers. You can't always wait on others to give the white smoke. If Alpha Software offers the future, then at some time one has to be able to trust the company for what it offers and go from there. A developer who has no time left for research, study and development is on a dead end road anyway.

By the way, I believe that if you would think that in a desktop situation you can only run a web component from/on a form that would be a self inflicted limitation to begin with. You could create a desktop application and not even run the components from the desktop. The way of designing applications existing of web components is not followed by many developers at the moment, I have only read about a handful on this forum. On many subjects you need to invent the wheel yourself which indeed will take time. But the results can be as awarding.

[DaveM]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Marcel,

Of course you "have the web component" Dave.... it is a standard feature of ANY v11 developer version. You don't need anything special, it's all in the version you have.
Just open the Web Projects Control Panel and all will come available to you.
However, when you first install it it might be that if you specified at install you would not use them it is not at once available but needs activation. Look for a way to make the WPCP visible that is all. If I say "activation" I do NOT mean electronic activation by Alpha. Just look for the function and tick it if needed.

NO, I do not have it. I have checked off the web component at the start and reinstalled alpha to be sure. I still get the same as the pic that was posted prior to this. I ordered the v11 as a desktop version alone, no web components were ordered. The web component(when clicked) shows as of the pic.

alphaworkspace.png

Kinda hard to make a web component like this.

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

I bet Alpha never even considered that desktop users might want to build web components for the desktop only. They should fix this.

[Ted Giles]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

It was a special on-off offer for a while Marcel. DT only.
Dave needs the money for tyres and car repairs so that's why he didn't buy the whole V11.

[jkwrpc]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Dave - I have to tell you that using web components in the desktop was something Alpha actively promoted since v10. Just look at their videos. For them to not have given you that capability in the desktop developer version is just plain wrong. They should make that right, at least such is my humble opinion.

[DaveM]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Actually, I don't really need the web stuff right now. I would say that if the grid was really meant to be on the desktop, it could be made by anyone with alpha desktop.

I have the full suite for v10.5, 9, 8, 7, 5, 3, 1(as well as most of the dos versions) and could make whatever I want there. I suppose one could always make a grid with another tool and use it in alpha? Not a big enough deal for me to work on that.

[mronck]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Marcel,



NO, I do not have it. I have checked off the web component at the start and reinstalled alpha to be sure. I still get the same as the pic that was posted prior to this. I ordered the v11 as a desktop version alone, no web components were ordered. The web component(when clicked) shows as of the pic.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]34938[/ATTACH]

Kinda hard to make a web component like this.

Well excuse me, I did not even know you COULD order it as "desktop only"-version! As stated earlier, the Alpha Software webshop does not even mention this. So, either they have abandoned that license option, or it just is not on the standard menu but must be specially ordered? I really had no idea this was ever possible. As far as I knew, you could only purchase a "developer" version including web. So that proves me wrong there. Did you also pay a smaller price then?

I just read Ted's reaction, pieces fall into place now, thanks Ted.

[Ted Giles]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Oh, I miss posting as often as I used to. We ought to start a business. If we ever got anything finished we'd make a fortune!