Attention Desktop Developers

[forskare]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Without trying to be overly critical: One deficiency that is apparent (to me) everywhere I look, regarding both (Alphasoftware & it's products) is: A lack of planning & organization. (IMHO, both their sales/marketing & code implementation reflects this problem "to a T".) ~ I'm not implying whatsoever that I could do a better job. But I honestly believe we are all paying for this one way or another. Adding features to an "aging a5 code-base has resulted in a "hodgepodge" of functionality that works, but is quirky in implementation. At some point, the "bolt-on approach" to adding features begins to create chaos. Unfortunately, I believe Alphasoftware crossed that boundary several versions back. And I believe they should have split the product at that point into 2 offerings. My guess is that based on company size and "human resources", this was not an option. On a side note: To report bugs only to hear back from the developer that some of the existing desktop C code-base is either too old to fix and/or add features, is not very assuring. (with regard to the desktop's future)

Alpha's Desktop Future??? Yup, we all wopulf like to know that. What you said in your post is very true. If Alpha does not split the product between Desktop and Web, Alpha should "mary them". Grids on the DT is a start. One can do so much more with the grids and dialogs than just straight DT. So much richer and professional looking with little effort. Yes, there is a learning curve but what new venture doesn't have one? While it's possible to develop this without using forms, having the ability for a grid to interact with fields on a form whould be a huge plus.

I really believe the hybrid is just the beginning of Alpha's new desktop, a desktop that will live up to the name of Alpha Anywhere. That is of course, if Alpha will continue to make this viable. If not, the DT will be out the door, quicker than we realize. Others will go wheree Alpha is venturing and we will have little choice but to make the switch. Alpha, the ball is in your court!!

[mronck]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

I think it would be a good thing if we started to forget the term "Desktop Developer" and slowly start to get used to the term "Application Developer". If Alpha succeeds in lifting the product to a platform independent development environment, we all win. If we keep struggling to cling on to yesterdays technology, we will all loose. At some point vision becomes priority in a product life-cycle. That's my take on things.

[SNusa]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

I think it would be a good thing if we started to forget the term "Desktop Developer" and slowly start to get used to the term "Application Developer". If Alpha succeeds in lifting the product to a platform independent development environment, we all win. If we keep struggling to cling on to yesterdays technology, we will all loose. At some point vision becomes priority in a product life-cycle. That's my take on things.

That is a solid viewpoint. (I just get so darn tired of hearing about how wonderful the web is, and how "it's the future." It's only "part of the future.") ~ And as long as "computers compute", the devices doing the "computing" will always need native code to function. The same cannot be said about "connectivity", which is merely an "extension" of the device.

On a totally unrelated note: Dvorac (a tech figure I have always respected & usually agreed with) publicly wrote a column about something I have been "troubled by" for years: In essence, he indicated that: Today's younger generation may be able to use all these nice gadgets, but the "chain of continuity" has been compromised. (And everyone is looking for the "easy way out.") As a society we have essentially been "numbed down" to the point where very few (if anyone even) still has the knowledge of how all this great technology hardware is actually produced in the first place. ~ In other words: At some point, human evolution may be "forced to hit the reset button, only to find our NTLDR is either corrupt, or entirely missing! (in my own words)

[mronck]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

That is a solid viewpoint. (I just get so darn tired of hearing about how wonderful the web is, and how "it's the future." It's only "part of the future." ~ And as long as "computers compute", the devices doing the "computing" will always need native code to function. The same cannot be said about "connectivity", which is merely an "extension" of the device.)

You talked about getting tired of hearing "how wonderful the web is" in reaction to my point of view, which makes me think the two might be related as you see it. If that is the case, you are wrong since I am not talking about desktop versus web, but I am talking of using web components on the desktop. So, I am not saying web, or desktop, or mobile, is the future AT ALL. What I am saying is quite the opposite, namely that the platform won't matter that much in the future since I believe we will go the "develop once, publish anywhere" route....

On a totally unrelated note: Dvorac (a tech figure I have always respected & usually agreed with) publicly wrote a column about something I have been "troubled by" for years: In essence, he indicated that: Today's younger generation may be able to use all these nice gadgets, but the "chain of continuity" has been compromised. (And everyone is looking for the "easy way out.") ~ As a society we have essentially been "numbed down" to the point where very few (if anyone even) still has the knowledge of how all this great technology hardware is actually produced in the first place. ~ In other words: "At some point, human evolution may be "forced to hit the reset button, only to find our NTLDR is either corrupt, or entirely missing." (That's my way of "seeing it.")

I don't think that is true. As long as mankind has existed, it has been specializing. We can think. So we can use logic and deduction. Hence, we utilize this to get the best man for a job, and that is exactly what we do in nowadays technology as well. That has nothing to do with its level. I mean, please count the carpenters in your village who still know how to built a clipper from the 17th century? I guess: nobody. We have seen that here in Holland when we tried to rebuilt the "Batavia". It was an extremely difficult task to master and things we could actually do during the 17th century we could not do now anymore, so we had to rethink the whole process. With regards to current technology we are highly specialized and that makes it all happen. We will continue to specialize as mankind in the future. That goes for computer technology as well. How many different jobs do we have in computer technology these days? Programmers, Engineers..... This really is nothing new, and nothing to be worried about. There have always been people who (sometimes most ingeniously) have been defeatists.

[forskare]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

You talked about getting tired of hearing "how wonderful the web is" in reaction to my point of view, which makes me think the two might be related as you see it. If that is the case, you are wrong since I am not talking about desktop versus web, but I am talking of using web components on the desktop. So, I am not saying web, or desktop, or mobile, is the future AT ALL. What I am saying is quite the opposite, namely that the platform won't matter that much in the future since I believe we will go the "develop once, publish anywhere" route....

Which is precisely why Alpha renamed it to Alpha Anywhere. That's also why I have said on other threads, the desktop "as we know it" is a technology of the past. It's time of passing will only be limnited to how long Alpha gets the develop it once functionabily stable for deployment. Since the new technology will, at some point in time, be replaced, why do some folks think the desktop will or should survive? Alpha has put the hand writing on the wall. It's time we all recognize that fact.

If you're not dabbling with the grids on the desktop, you are missing the boat. That is the "handwriting on the wall" and the beginning of Alpha Anywhere.

[SNusa]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Hi Ken;

Assuming you are correct, I presume that assessment also implies that: If one wishes to write code for anything but a server, then Alpha is likely not a viable solution long-term? (anymore)

[forskare]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Hi Robert,

Not sure I understand but I can't imagine Alpha 'not' allowing a developer to write code no matter which Alpha product. I have not spoken with anyone at Alpha. My opinions are base solely on what Alpha has released thus far and what they have said. My logic is this. With the release of v12, Alpha Five will officially be changed to Alpha Anywhere. The reason for the name change is to better represent the Alpha product line. Wile it's true the DK can logically fit into that scheme, the DT is old technology, which if I'm not mistaken, contains some old 3rd party code. I may be wrong on this part, but I suspect this is why the browse is what it is. That does not bode well for moving forward. A mix of new and old technology does not produce a quality, reliable product.

Now, add the fact that Alpha's desire is for what's produced of the DT can be used on the web with little or no modification. The desktop forms, browses etc., will not work on the wed or mobile. that's way Alpha is producing the grids to work on forms, etc. However, again, it's not a true DT that will fit the scheme of Alpha Anywhere. at the present, grids cannot interact with forms, unless one is to write the code and writing the code to accomplish this is not only impracticable but frankly, it's a waste of time because, as I've said before, the DT technology is old stuff and to unreliable.

I believe Alpha, with the release of v12, will have a new type of DT which may even have a different name, something like WCD as Marcel calls it, a Web Component Desktop. It's will be used as the current DT is used, on individual or an intranet setup without going onto the web. If the web or mobile is needed, it is all set to go. Alpha has talked about this desire for a number of years and it's finally coming to fruition.

Think of it this way, can the current DT be used anywhere? No, it cannot.

[SNusa]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Thanks Ken;

I suspect your assumptions are likely correct. When I became involved with the subscription, I was led to believe otherwise by sales. I would never have become involved (to this level) had they stated otherwise. Every year I have renewed, sales always stated Alpha was heavily committed to the desktop, and to fixing any existing bugs. (And there was talk of "a compiler" which also created my hopes/expectations of simple software deployment.) ~ I renewed early last time, shortly before v.11 shipped as I recall.

Once v.11 arrived, I sensed the "desktop abandonment", but always expected resources to be eventually allocated to fixing the pre-existing browse bugs. ~ And this "intent" to fix the desktop related bugs, once they completed current enhancements of the "web side", (more specifically SQL performance optimization at the time) was explicitly conveyed to me by Cian, as recently as this past January.

[mronck]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Hi Ken;

Assuming you are correct, I presume that assessment also implies that: If one wishes to write code for anything but a server, then Alpha is likely not a viable solution long-term? (anymore)

Hi Robert.

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about this, maybe mostly caused by the use of the name "web" in "web component". This seems to have the effect with a lot of desktop developers of "auto engage" into a certain "defensive mode". So, why not call it "Desktop Components" instead of "Web Components" for this cause? Indeed, I have also referred to them as "WCD" which stands for Web Components on the Desktop.
So, were we to talk about "Desktop Components" would that also give you the feeling the desktop became abandoned?

Your quote as stated above makes me wonder, since obviously quite a lot of "old style" desktop applications is build to run from a server, and actually IS running from a server. Many developers that frequent here are involved in desktop applications "old style" that run on networks. So why this statement of yours? Whether you run it on 1 machine or on many is not a characteristic of a desktop application versus a web application!
The difference of course (I am aware you very well know this, but just to make my explaining complete here) is in the fact whether the application is presented towards users by a server over the internet (web application) or by a server over a secured internal network (intranet application) or that it is NOT presented by a server and run on just 1 machine (desktop) or on many machines over a LAN (desktop/networked).

So Robert, this is not about how you present your software, but what is IN your software, what it is build with.

For use on the desktop, we can use the good 'ol forms and tooling, but we can also use "Desktop Components" ! Those will not run on a server, but they will be used to run under a special protocol which is covered by the "working preview mode" that A5 offers. Whilst doing so, the server is actually off. You don't need a server license to run "Desktop Components" because it is not engaged. So your remark as stated above is really not applicable with regards to using "Desktop Components".

I hope this convinces you in some way. So, with this feature, you will be able to produce your desktop applications as you did before, but with the difference that you now can use a completely different set of tooling offered by the "Desktop Components".

If you have not done so, you really should try those out. In no more then just about an hour you will get an idea of what this could mean to your applications. What you need besides the hour time is an open mindset, and some readiness to explore. Yes, there is a learningcurve, and yes, it will involve some javascript but Selwyn really has gone to great lengths in explaining many of the situations you will encounter in easy-to-understand videos. And where things are becoming "special" (since "Desktop Components" really actually are "Web Components" designed to run on the web and not specifically on the desktop) you either need to invent the wheel or collaborate with others who might have invented that wheel already before you and can help you with sharing code, ideas and solutions. We have started a workgroup for this as you can read in the Announcement sections.

Using "Desktop Components" really is the way to step into the future. Not only for us as developers but also for Alpha Five. They are simply to small to keep 2, or even 3!, completely different programming sections up to standard. By creating multi-disciplinary components, they hit two flies in one strike and that actually is doable for Alpha Software. This is the "develop once, publish anywhere" strategy.

We are not quite there, Alpha still has some designing to do to make this happen, but my best guess is they have long time ago seen the value of this and will work towards that. And that, gentlemen, is a very fortunate thing for us developers!

[Ray in Capetown]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Hi Robert.......
.......mm
.........mm...
We are not quite there, Alpha still has some designing to do to make this happen, but my best guess is they have long time ago seen the value of this and will work towards that. And that, gentlemen, is a very fortunate thing for us developers!

All that to end in your best guess?

Where is the misunderstanding?

[mronck]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Sorry? Make a point Ray....
"Ends" are seldomly great... remember, we all end up dead in the end.

[forskare]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Marcel,

Very well said. I often wonder if what I believe and have said about this subject is accurate. But, when I recall the statements made by Alpha to "develop once, publish anywhere", and the see what they've done in v11 and sneak peaks of v12, there is no other conclusion.

Robert,

Every year I have renewed, sales always stated Alpha was heavily committed to the desktop, and to fixing any existing bugs.

There has only been one renewal of the subscription and that was AFTER the initial subscription to v11 when it was released. Previous to that, we had to buy everything individually. Yes, Alpha is heavily committed to the desktop or they would not spend the time and energy to make components available to the DT. In the long run, the DT will be richer looking and be much easier to create than the current DT. And, as far as I can tell, the component development is not plagued with the quirky reactions we get with the old style DT when there are too many odd files which need to be cleaned out with a database compact.

The future is the Component Method and those components will be used interchangeably on a single computer, an in-house network, Mobile or Web To me, that is exciting. Alpha is known for its power and ease of use. Component development takes it to a higher level and THAT IS AWESOME!

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Robert,

If Cian told you something I'm sure it's true. He's a straight shooter. Also, some time ago (2-years?) Kurt Raynor talked about being able to make Alpha capable of generating exes. Don't know if they are following through on that, but it sounded promising.

[mronck]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

Robert,

If Cian told you something I'm sure it's true. He's a straight shooter. Also, some time ago (2-years?) Kurt Raynor talked about being able to make Alpha capable of generating exes. Don't know if they are following through on that, but it sounded promising.

Problem with those things is Peter, that at the moment you tell someone what your ideas are for the future, nobody knows how that future is going to unfold. And as time goes by, things tend to change and more then once you would need to adjust your initial plans/ideas for the future as you stated them earlier. In the software industry, time goes by extremely fast and nothing you say will hold for very long. I guess that's why some have stopped saying what they were planning for the future long time ago. It's almost impossible to hold up to it. And even if you could, the question would be whether you would like that since in the software industry rigidity does not tend to get you anywhere. If someone tells me today what he is planning to build tomorrow, that's interesting but I would not hold it against him if later in time he had to make amendments to that course based on things that happened in between, technologies that became available, things like that.

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: Attention Desktop Developers

You're right - things change.