Small Story to tell.......

[mronck]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

Hi Guys,

This thread is worhtwhile because at least I learn from it.

Andy, you are right to look at this case with criticisme.
But I do not think your argumentations are to the point in this case. You gave good thinking stuff though!

What happens is, that this is not a stand-alone-user with a dedicated product sold to him. This is one of many users that bought one of my standard applications.
So I did not know him AT ALL (He bought it in some shop).
And in my humble opinion I do not need to either.
It is the responsability of the buyer to assure himself of enough basic knowledge.
I do not mean any knowledge related to this specific software, but the knowledge to use a computer at all.

He downloaded the ZIP but got stuck from there.
I tried to help him, and eventually did, but I do not think his opinion that I should help him take the computer out of the box, attach the powercable, push the ON-button etc. etc. is right.
I am not responsible for ignorance on behalve of the customer.
I can try to prevent, but then you get those scilly warnings like in the USA on home appliances like "Please do not put your cat in this magnetron".

In my opinion SERVICE has not only to be written with the first character in capital, but the whole word.
So I try to learn from this and see if there is any need for adjustment of my systems.

That brings me to my last point to share: it would be nice if Alpha Five not only had a better Installer, but also a build-in Update generator. Would be Tops !

Regards,

Marcel

[Wanda Tucker]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

Marcel,
One more thought along the lines of "professionalism"..."Professionalism" (in this case) is a perception one has about oneself or another based on his/her actions, as well as good faith. I don't see any error on your part, yet I can't help but think that there is something to the phrase, "the customer is always right". We know the customer isn't always right - but if we can manage to convince the customer that you totally understand their frustration, then they can believe they're right. (Then you gotta' really try to understand it.)

There's psychology involved in dealing with difficult people. The best thing that helps me is to evaluate my actions, see if I have anything to apologize for, get beyond that, and THEN try to hear what the customer is saying in between those angry words. Your customer was probably feeling totally inadequate, although he/she has a bachelors degree, or something. Addressing the inadequacy (or his fear of never being able to learn how to use a computer, or whatever - you might have to subtly dig for what his "fear" was) in a supportive way can work wonders, when you take your personal feelings out of the equation. (That's the hardest part for me.)

Wanda

[mronck]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

Good point Wanda.

That is also what I tried to do. So I took my personal feelings to the forum and uploaded my frustrations there in stead of attacking my customer with it :-)

You are right about the Customer being always right.
There is a limit though.
But I think as a service provider we have influence on whether we reach that point in our interaction with the customer or not. Not always, but sometimes we can avoid the problem leading to a higher level of drama.

The atmosphere in your reaction is the right one.
One should seek for improvement in those situtions, because it is for your own benefit at the end.
Can your system become better in order to avoid this in the future ? This is plain and simple "Aiming for perfection".

A point nobody has touched yet, is the relation between expected service levels and the price of the product.
You can not expect $ 2.000 service on a $ 500 product.
But you CAN always expect a friendly and polite attitude !

Another interesting thing to discuss is whether Support should be free or not. There are good things to say for both points of view. When you have to pay for support you are more inclined to seek the solution yourself before buying the support incident, whether when it is free, maybe the customer would write you more instantly instead of trying to find the solution himself ??

Greetings,

Marcel
Regards,

Marcel

[Wanda Tucker]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

Good points, Marcel. I love this board for so many reasons - and one is being able to vent, explain why you're having the problem, as well as asking for help. I've certainly done my part in venting.

You're right, too, about people placing more value on what they have to pay for. My "support" is certainly not free unless it's a little two-seconder. My time is still worth my design fee, because it takes away from my design time.

Gotta run...
Wanda

[Melvin Davidson]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

"Another interesting thing to discuss is whether Support
"should be free or not.

My official policy is that if there is a coding defect my application, I fix it for free. If client needs modifications to accomodate business changes, they pay.

[Wanda Tucker]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

Well, yeah - I assumed "support" meant anything beyond what was written into the contract, such as when one employee leaves and another comes on board and needs some training to use your app - or if they've messed up the design, somehow - along those lines.
Wanda

[mronck]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

Hmm. So you see how many points of view there are considering what defines "Support":

* Help the client because of the influence of a 'bug'
* Training of employees or the client himself
* Help the client to accomodate business changes
* Assistance on the use of the application
* Assistance in hardware related issues
* Assistance with installing software or patches etc.
* Solving problems between the app and the clients situation

And who knows what more.

Wanda has a good point when she says time for support is taking development time, so it has to be paid.
Question is how. Should it be included in the product price as a basic feature or should the customer pay only when support is needed.
Then how, by incident, by contract, by 100-incidents etc.
Lots of choices to be made here.

There would be a good point in all of us developers negotiating on a Standard Support Policy here if rains start to fall and we can spare the time....

Marcel

[Wanda Tucker]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

Good topic for the next conference, and in the meantime whoever is the "presenter" for that could collect our thoughts and put some cohesion into it, throw it back out for review...actually maybe I'll do that for a newsletter article - AAYYYHHH - did I just volunteer?!

Okay - I did. I'll print out this thread, collect your other thoughts on support, look for common/mutual agreement, opposition, and see what I can come up with, if anyone's interested...just don't look for an article any time soon - give me a couple months - still tracking down customers, and still working the business in very limited time (15-20 hrs/wk).

Wanda

[Marc King - A5solutions]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

Hi Marcel, on a more serious note I dont let my clients know anything about the process, the technology, or the maintenance. This way I can offer end-to-end services and they are free to get back to thier business. You should look at expanding your DB development service into full support services as well.

Oh and I do make the BIG bucks :-)

Cheers

Marc
www.a5solutions.com

[Peter.Greulich]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

How big?

[Marcel Kollenaar]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

Hi Mark,

Can you be more specific to:

"- I dont let my clients know anything about the process, the technology, or the maintenance."

Ok, but in certain situation a customer will ask you some questions about how you will you handle a certain situation, eg you made a mistake and must repair it. The Customer isn't crazy he doesn't want to pay for your mistakes. Is this all included?

"This way I can offer end-to-end services and they are free to get back to thier business."

You mean you create a certain financial playground?

"You should look at expanding your DB development service into full support services as well."

What Services do you include and how is your cost structure for this full service?

Regards,

MK

[mronck]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

Hi Guys,Mark,

I must say I second all of my name-brothers questions.

Maybe I do not understand quite right, but it looks like a car-dealer who does not give any guarantee so he can determine later at any time whether he wants to help the client or not under HIS conditions.

That might not work in an environment of competition and suspicion. You must not forget that we, IT-branche, have almost entirely ruined our own market by making promises in the last decades that we could not fullfill to our customers. We had them invest billions of dollars in dreams blown out of proportion by our colleagues with less integrity. We are paying the price for that as a whole now.
The fast buck does not survive time.
We should seek for integer and lasting solutions in terms of service and market-approach.

That's why this thread is interesting. One can hardly find the perfect solution himself, but as a whole we could.

Question remains:

How do we approach the market as independend developers for small- to medium sized companies and private public ?

Let me shoot from the hip:

* Why do we not discuss a "Seal" that can be attached to a product when it meets certain standards set by Alpha Five developers as a whole ?

* Why do we not discuss the forming of a "Programmers Pool" of which any Alpha Five developer can become a member under certain conditions and that guarantees the customer that his product will not fall into the water if the initial developer gets hit by a train.

Lots of things could be discussed and determined in this sector of which we could all benefit big time.
But we don't. Why ? Are we rich enough already, do we simply not care, do we think that as an individual we already know all best for ourselves ?

I have suggested more then once the possibility to add a forum to this board for business related issues.
I don't see anyone seconding that motion, nevertheless I see tons of questions related to that subject.
It is a bit disappointing as well that this is not picked up yet by the Alpha Management responsable for this board.

One compliment goes to Wanda: she volunteered to do an article which deserves applauding considering that she is not a longtime experienced user yet and starting her own business just about now.
Why did not someone more experienced volunteer for something like that ?

Kind regards and due respect to Wanda,

Marcel

[Andy Dibble]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

Hi Melvin,

Goods points - however, as a developer of software you need to take in to consideration the environment in which your software is to be used. For example �

The principles of Affording, Visibility, & Feedback were created through a study conducted by psychologist Don Norman. His research involved examining people from all walks of life and how people interacted with every day common objects such as doors, window, remote control, cars, buses, trains etc. At the end of the study, three general design principles emerged: Affording, Visibility, and Feedback were applied to the principle of object orientated software development. I use these principles for Alpha Databases � It�s amazing how easy it is to stop the scenarios M experienced with his customer.

Andy

[martinwcole]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

This reminds me of a funny story. A few years ago, business was slow, so I thought I would experiment with an add in the Dallas Morning News, advertising my services as a Database Programmer for small to medium sized businesses.

But I was bombarded by calls from people wanting me to come to their home and make their computer work again. And they were more than willing to pay. Because I am not interested in that I declined and dropped the add - but I immediately saw someone could make a nice living doing same.

As regards the original message, if someone has the time to go to school on a program like Wise, you can set everything to work automatically - which everyone expects these days with mass marketed software.

[Marcel Kollenaar]

RE: Small Story to tell.......

Hi,

Quoted:
* Why do we not discuss a "Seal" that can be attached to a product when it meets certain standards set by Alpha Five developers as a whole ?

What is a standard? What sets a standard. My solution could be more standard than your solution or the other way around. There are solution that can't work if you follow certain standards.

Quoted:
* Why do we not discuss the forming of a "Programmers Pool" of which any Alpha Five developer can become a member under certain conditions and that guarantees the customer that his product will not fall into the water if the initial developer gets hit by a train.

Ohhhhhh, Nooooooo. Just like the Filemaker Solution Alliance Partner. For members it is a "seal" for those who can't meet or pay this memberschip because they are starting and do not satisfy to the requirements it is a simple way of protection and shut out.

The bad thing is that all those 'MEMBERS' started once as newbees and even selling a big application with newbee "technology". When the newbees becomes matured they exclude newbees by a kind of "super intelligence database club".

That's one of the reasons I switched to Alpha Five. His open and fresh community. Don't spoil it by this kind of ideas. If you build good stuff than you don't have a "seal". The mouth to mouth afvertisement wil do its job.

I've seen a lot of bussines that satisfy a lot of memberships and they all made a mess of automation projects, big players in the market. LOL

You notice you touched a tender string....

Regards,

Marcel