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Losing records VERY WORRYING

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  • #31
    Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

    Just a quick note: I had written in my autoexec to turn off oportunistic locking, however the machines were switched to Windows 7 machines and for some reason, the code will not write to the registry using registry.sys_create.

    I went in manually and put in the new registry entry and I will keep my fingers crossed that this may help.


    • #32
      Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

      Not currently very active here anymore w/a5, but having "popped in" I saw this thread which "jogged my memory" on these other (possibly related, but doubtful) "SMB" threads:
      (Also some of my own experience with Windows file manipulation/corruption outside of a5 during the past 5 years.)

      I do know for a fact that even Windows has some issues when 1.) Copying large files to external USB drives on some hardware combinations w/Win7-64 (using TeraCopy is a workaround) fails. The files copy, but they don't compare properly afterwards. (no indication of this failure is made, as the problem is only realized if a compare is done on the files, or if you need them and "find out the hard way") 2.) If you're using MS VirtualPC and using a mapped driver to store/work with data outside the VM (even when mapped to a regular internal hard drive), data also an and frequently will become corrupted without any advanced warning. (I've replicated this on numerous different machines running an XP vm inside of both Vista, and Windows-7 (both 64bit OSes) and the VM's was based on XP (32 bit) ~ If you use a VM, I learned to "keep all the associated data in them VM too." (Never liked that solution, as if the VM file ever corrupts, everything including data is lost!)

      On the vm side, I can manually drag and drop (copy) .png files created in Fireworks (not huge ones by any means) from the desktop of a vm, out to the host drive. 4 out of 5 times it might work. But on the 5'th time, you can preview the same file and realize that something went wrong, as only the first part of the image is good, the rest is all grayed out. Similar things happen with Btrieve database (accounting) files (when an accounting system) is mapped to data outside the VM. I've been using the POS for over a decade and never lost a bit of data to corruption using it conventionally. But in a VM, with data stored "outside" (on the host drive), the data will eventually ALWAYS become corrupt. (Not at first, but after a few minutes doing the same kind of things, like just running reports based on date criteria..... All of a sudden Btrieve errors will appear, and that's when you know the data has been corrupted & "the party is over."

      I have no idea if any of these issues are "related at the core", but it sure seems strange. Microsoft has tried, but seemingly never fixed this? (I'm sure it's something MS would prefer to keep "swept under the carpet.") But if you look hard and deep, you will find many threads on numerous forums making reference to these seemingly "phantom" problems. Unfortunately, I ran into this issue after I had moved all my Acronis True-Image images from a smaller drive to a large external one. (Virtually every image file was effectively ruined as they did not compare and could not be "mounted." Fortunately I had not experienced any OS hardware/drive failures, and in the end lost nothing important.)

      Note: The issues I experience firsthand can (and were) created on two different (and relatively high end) hardware. A Lenovo T61p, and also on a HP EliteBook 8770w with SSD (vm corruption) ~ This is not "fluke!" (Also, brand of USB drive didn't seem to matter. Problem is "in the box.") I added this because, unllke so many other a5 issues, certain "phantom" data corruption scenarios may not even be their fault, and thus be "outside" the scope of Alpha's control.....
      Apparently (from my research on this), some of these "data integrity" problems people are experiencing in Windows are reportedly only afflicting 64BIT WINDOWS SYSTEMS! (Too bad it wasn't on the 32 bit ones.) And it's only larger files that are effected. (The type of file/extention doesn't seem to matter. And Windows doesn't report (or even seem to catch) this "failure" at any time. ~ Since ONLY some 3'rd party tools do, I suspect they are successful because (unlike windows) they are constantly comparing "blocks of data" as the files are written, and they continuously silently retry to write the data block, until they successfully compare. (None of the cache settings in windows were able to alleviate the problems, only 3'rd party "explorer replacements" were able to circumvent the problems.)

      On the sites where these problems were "diagnosed", an incredible amount of time was spent trying to compare hardware/firmware/software looking for a "common denominator." "High-end" consumer based systems (different brands) were effected. The causes (to my knowledge) were never ascertained. In every instance I came across, the only resolution was to stop relying on windows explorer (to transfer files), and use TeraCopy was the only solution found! (Even with the input/assistance from MS engineers participating on one of the forums.)

      PS: Because of this, IMO it is extremely important to transfer large files (especially to external drives for backup) only using 3'rd party tools like TeraCopy. (which is not a perfect solution by any means) And NEVER USE THE BUILT-IN WINDOWS FILE MANAGER for moving large files. Other tools (which compare files) like SecondCopy may also be favorable & reliable. ~ I personally believe that somewhere within the depths of windows, there is still a huge crippling "low level" elusive data integrity issue. ~ And because this has not been "resolved", publicly the problem has been largely "ignored."
      Last edited by SNusa; 12-18-2013, 02:37 PM.
      Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
      It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
      RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."


      • #33
        Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

        We have been occasionally experiencing the same problem for over a year. At first I thought it was someone doing something wrong but it has happened to me a few times so here I am.
        We have a V.11 network of 5 computers, 4 on runtime (one on V10), (no shadows) and one with the developer app (no shadow). Our form has 11 child tables and an embedded browse as well. Occasionally, when one makes a change to the record it can be blanked out as described earlier. When I go to search for it, in the parent table, it is not there but I have found blank records so this might be the blanked records issue. The child table info remains. We have a mix of operating systems, Vista (4) and Win7 (pro).

        Larry Ternowski


        • #34
          Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING


          The standard recommendation is to run the same version ( in fact the same build of the same version ) on all workstations sharing access to / with the database. A mix of runtime and developer builds is ok, as long as they are the same version and build. It's NOT ok to run some workstations on v10 and others on v11.


          • #35
            Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

            Originally posted by Tom Cone Jr View Post

            The standard recommendation is to run the same version ( in fact the same build of the same version ) on all workstations sharing access to / with the database. A mix of runtime and developer builds is ok, as long as they are the same version and build. It's NOT ok to run some workstations on v10 and others on v11.
            I am still having the same issues but less frequently, still disturbing though. I made sure that opportunistic locking was off on all Machines. I also had some on save events and put several wait until idle pauses in my scripts. I always seem to have the problem on a form editing through multiple tables in a set. To test, I put a button on my form based on the set to open a form with only one table and making the edit there. I have had no errors yet when editing in this way.


            • #36
              Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

              Tom, I "found" the time to update the last computer to V11




              • #37
                Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

                John, I was thinking that perhaps it is something to do with an embedded browse as I think you mentioned you had a browse in your form. I have other forms with embedded browses and do not recall any issues with them so who knows?


                • #38
                  Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

                  Just an update to this thread, I am still having the issue, and have updated all computers on the system to new ones running windows 7 and v11 of alpha. I have thought about going to a server instead of the NAS to host the app, but there is a fair amount of expense and approval process because of our IT department at our parent company. I hesitate to do this not knowing if it will fix the issue or not.


                  • #39
                    Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

                    Same bucket here. I nightly rebuild indexes and backup in that order.


                    • #40
                      Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

                      FWIW I've had mixed results using a NAS to host an alpha five desktop application. Problems of the type you describe went away when we switched over to a regular PC or server. I've surmised that some NAS devices may be optimized for writes, but not reads.


                      • #41
                        Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

                        What type of host is the alpha files residing on, a NAS, full server, or a PC?


                        • #42
                          Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

                          What type of host is the alpha files residing on, a NAS, full server, or a PC?

                          Oh, it's sitting on a network resource.


                          • #43
                            Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

                            I should clarify. The data is on the network resource. Runtimes are on the various desktop PCs.


                            • #44
                              Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

                              As mentioned above, I no longer allow my customers to use network attached storage devices to act as server for my Alpha Five desktop applications. I put them on PC's or Servers, only.


                              • #45
                                Re: Losing records VERY WORRYING

                                Do you feel that eliminates the danger associated with indexing and so forth? What is it about NAS resources that affects reliability and what can you do about it? I don't think IS is going to let me pop a PC on the network for everyone to access.