Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conundrum

[totallycovered]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

Alpha might do better if they focused more on the New User experience (ease-of-use) improvements, and just a very select few key features. Easy Web development is the only reason I chose Alpha, and I see focus shifting from easy to tons of features. I think easy will ship more boxes to new users. I think a couple powerful new key features in each major release will keep seasoned developers subscribing, and result in fewer bugs. I know the Alpha gang wants to give so much to the users. However, I wonder if the "feature race" is causing confusion in the office, and lower sales numbers (and probably a crazy amount of coffee consumption). You can't compete with Microsoft on features. You can destroy the competition with ease-of-use!

[MarionT]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

I'm new to A5, but I would have dropped A5 lickedty-split during my evaluation if it were not 'feature rich' (and as reasonably priced as it is).

I don't understand any comparison to Microsoft being on the table (I have not read the whole thread), as MS doesn't have any product (to my knowledge) that is comparable to A5.

A5 lets me go directly from my SQL database to a front end, without having to know anything about the internal plumbing.

MS had LightSwitch, which looked promising; but I don't want Silverlight....

[forskare]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

I spent at least 50% of my time making thing work that just didn't - look at this for example you do a free form search - you do a from-to in say dates, and it works, go turn the column heading to off and it's all over red-rover...

This has happened several times to me, the latest last night. In order to work around a bunch of free space in the search part, I checked the Freeform box and created the freeform. It looked good. However when I clicked the search button, it now get an error message. Do I want to continue or stop. Makes no difference which I choose, it goes on anyhow. So, I unchecked the FreeForm and still get the error message. It's a lot less time to start over. Now that's frustrating/

And for the record the last time I tried to comment about bugs in V11, I got an email from Selwyn saying "I'm not aware of any bugs in V11" - and offered to help me if I paid for support..

Yes, I've been told that as well. I was torked, to say the least because if it was't a bug, it was definitely something Alpha needed to address. I suspect they receive a a lot of bug reports, many of which are not bugs. My guess is, while some are bugs, most are due to the issue as mentioned above. Spend some time clearing up the nit picky things and you won't get near as many bug reports. The product will be much better, the sales will increase and we'll be a lot happier and a lot less frustrated.
kenn

[totallycovered]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

Agreed! The ease-of-use and feature set are what sell Alpha. My comparison to Microsoft is that Redmond can add features easily, they have a lot of manpower. But alpha can create ease-of-use where Microsoft does not. It's their strong-point, and their selling point. Not to stop making new features, just maybe fewer per year. But it's just my opinion, and it's probably wrong.

[SNusa]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

Agreed! The ease-of-use and feature set are what sell Alpha. My comparison to Microsoft is that Redmond can add features easily, they have a lot of manpower. But alpha can create ease-of-use where Microsoft does not. It's their strong-point, and their selling point. Not to stop making new features, just maybe fewer per year. But it's just my opinion, and it's probably wrong.

You are totally right (IMHO)! Developers choose Alpha for ease of usage, power & speed.... And since a5 has matured into a product well beyond what the casual user (FileMaker Pro users etc.) could be comfortable using..... A5 is now positioned primarily as a development tool competing against products like Dev. Studio........ And when problems manifest themselves from "quirks in the system" (resulting from running on an "unhardened /unproven code base" as I like to call it) the benefits of using a5 become questionable at best. ~ All I can say is that: If a5 looses it's "RAD development advantages" (due to internal buggy behavior), future for a5 won't be bright!"

Why? Because if you can code by hand using MS Dev. Studio, (slower but few surprises), you probably don't continually run into unexpected issues & anomalies that turn the tables in terms of efficiency & productivity...... And the side benefits are: You become literally "plugged into an industry standard" when "going the MS way".....

Honestly, once you do get deep enough into a5 and the underlying X-basic programming language...... You can't help but question: "Should I have just struggled longer with Dev Studio to get here?" ~ I'm "on the brink" of that place right now. I find myself thinking: "Should I use the GUI, or do it all in the XbE?" When unpredictable things happen, my answer is: code....

At this level, it's got to be tough for a5 to "un-complicate the complicated." And that's what a5's "claim to fame" originally was. (As I recall they focused on providing the "PC users" with the ability to program, akin to what Lotus did for business with spreadsheets.) ~ I wonder whether they have partially forgotten their roots, like many companies do! (In Alpha's defense, I suppose that market has largely disappeared though.) In any event, I personally wonder whether that at some point (in the not too distant future) whether the company may be sold to one of the "big sharks." ~ If/when that happens, all bets are off! I've experienced firsthand what Macromedia did a decade ago when it purchased Elemental Software (Drumbeat 2000). (They immediately became a "wrecking ball.") ~ Obviously, I sincerely hope this doesn't happen, at least in the foreseeable future! (especially the "wrecking ball" part)....

Don't get me wrong here: I still like using a5. ~Because in some "sick & twisted" way, it's fun to use when it works as expected.... Only I now just choose to stay about 6 months "behind the development cycle/curve." ~ This resolution (to avoid problems and pitfalls) works for me! [The downside is that Alpha lost a "determined, thorough & persevering debugger with a (nauseating, almost debilitating) 6'th sense."] ~ FYI: Whatever you call it, (my natural ability to virtually "will a computer problem into existence") is not a gift by any means, & you can have it, trust me!

~ I just hope they don't loose too many of us "bug-magnet software hounds", or the bugs won't get uncovered, documented & resolved in a timely fashion.
(And then we'll all be in for a "treat").....

[SNusa]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

"Cleaner & faster/more powerful" is the preferred solution! - (not merely "faster/more powerful")

[peteconway]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

Robert Nice to know I'm not alone - I agree with you well said- the message board is now almost void of any of the grass roots developers that were once excited and invigorated and helpful to those needing help - again it's not our product - we are the users - support and professional well thought documentation are not our responsibly - but are our expectation!

[Steve Wood]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

Are we on the same message board?

Robert Nice to know I'm not alone - I agree with you well said- the message board is now almost void of any of the grass roots developers that were once excited and invigorated and helpful to those needing help - again it's not our product - we are the users - support and professional well thought documentation are not our responsibly - but are our expectation!

[SNusa]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

Robert Nice to know I'm not alone - I agree with you well said- the message board is now almost void of any of the grass roots developers that were once excited and invigorated and helpful to those needing help - again it's not our product - we are the users - support and professional well thought documentation are not our responsibly - but are our expectation!

Are we on the same message board?

All I can ad is that: If Alpha 5 didn't exist, I probably wouldn't have anything to do with programming / writing code anymore........
(still not entirely sure whether that's a good thing, or a bad thing)

Pete, Steve (and everyone else here) ~

Have a great weekend. I won't be around much for the next week or so. I'm going "a cruisin' in the Caribbean" with my sweetheart!
(Hope I don't forget everything I've learned here! ~ No computers, no tablets, no email, no message boards, not even a working cell phone.... AAaaahhhh, BLISS!)

[SNusa]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

This has happened several times to me, the latest last night. In order to work around a bunch of free space in the search part, I checked the Freeform box and created the freeform. It looked good. However when I clicked the search button, it now get an error message. Do I want to continue or stop. Makes no difference which I choose, it goes on anyhow. So, I unchecked the FreeForm and still get the error message. It's a lot less time to start over. Now that's frustrating/

Yes, I've been told that as well. I was torked, to say the least because if it was't a bug, it was definitely something Alpha needed to address. I suspect they receive a a lot of bug reports, many of which are not bugs. My guess is, while some are bugs, most are due to the issue as mentioned above. Spend some time clearing up the nit picky things and you won't get near as many bug reports. The product will be much better, the sales will increase and we'll be a lot happier and a lot less frustrated.
kenn

And for the record the last time I tried to comment about bugs in V11, I got an email from Selwyn saying "I'm not aware of any bugs in V11" - and offered to help me if I paid for support..

WOW! In Alpha's defense, they (Selwyn & Cian @ Alpha) have always been very, very, very accommodating (to me) with regards to reporting bugs and getting fixes over the years. (I've found some "beautes" too, like the very recent embedded browse bug!) ~ I had actually uncovered /discovered it about a year ago, but it was never fixed until this year, when I followed up with a code example (a few weeks ago). ~So they could visually see exactly what was "broken."

[peteconway]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

Are we on the same message board? - yes, point being - Steve a conductor alone does not make an orchestra, there are many other voices no longer heard on the board, that once gave all. That's all I'm saying.

[Steve Workings]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

I disagree with you Pete. I know one user who found a bug last week, started a discussion about it including wondering whether it was a bug, and a couple days later the pre-release version of A5 had this fixed. While this is circumstantial evidence, it appears pretty clear to me that Alpha is definitely watching and monitoring this board and all posters here, always with an eye to perfecting their very complex product.

[bea2701]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

What is it all about: bugs or frustration?
someone with polite words now trying to make a point that works then at least not because I think that 80% of users say what is it about? and understands nothing. Nonsensical statements, half-informed references like a ball game without a winner. Show well once in a concrete where is the pain instead of meow.
One thing I know certainly the community atmosphere is going well in advance especially persevere .... Steve BTW I share his opinion

[SNusa]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

What is it all about: bugs or frustration?
someone with polite words now trying to make a point that works then at least not because I think that 80% of users say what is it about? and understands nothing. Nonsensical statements, half-informed references like a ball game without a winner. Show well once in a concrete where is the pain instead of meow.
One thing I know certainly the community atmosphere is going well in advance especially persevere .... Steve BTW I share his opinion

"Bugs create unnecessary frustration."

Replying to you question, my response is an unequivocal "BOTH".... It all comes down to one unsurprising fact: Software companies perpetually get caught up in trying to deliver "the latest and greatest." (at the expense of QC) In doing so, things are seldom really ready to ship when they do. The bigger the product, the larger the issues. Especially when you are delivering a program designed to develop other programs. (OMG, what a feat in itself!) If you look through this message-board, you will find hundreds of examples where trial and error gets around an "a5 design issue / flaw." Frequently, these bugs go un-noticed as a result of "high level users" either 1.) not reporting them, or 2.) not using the a5 programs' "built in wizardry." (These advanced users/developers can simply code much like the would within MS Dev. Studio, and with their experience, they know enough to "punch out a quick workaround" after quickly diagnosing the issues.) ~ Hence, from a productivity standpoint: The necessity to know X-basic (for a5) is a fundamental IMHO..... In the end, there is a "steep and slippery slope" one must now climb to "master this wizardry" in addition to learning the basics." ~ And if you rely on the "wizardry" you still need to know the "what and why's" of it all.

I don't mess with Dev.Studio, but my friends do. They imply it's a very solid product with few surprises... Why? Because it doesn't have all this "wizardry" built in..... (Just another case of "the turtle versus the hare" me thinks).... As I've said many times: Even after committing literally hundreds of hours to watching training videos, studying & learning a5..... I personally still give a5 two thumbs up with regards to "what it is capable of being & doing." ~ It (a5) just doesn't always deliver exactly what is expected! You have to wait 1/2 of a product cycle to get that feature..... (my opinion)

PS: If anyone here cares to comment regarding their first hand experiences using Dev. Studio vs Alpha 5, (in the context of this thread, regarding stability, bugs & unexpected behavior etc...) I'd be very interested in hearing your comparisons between the two products....

[kingcarol]

Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

While I am loving that I have been able to accomplish many things using the Alpha wizardry, I keep worrying about what would happen to my application if Alpha goes away and now my app is full of proprietary Alpha stuff. And, although I bit on the Alpha solution due to things it seemed to be advertising about not needing to be a programmer to use it, I have often wondered how anybody without some programming knowledge would get around any buggy wizardry, or even accomplish much. I've had to use every programming skill I've managed to pick up to accomplish almost everything I've tried. And I was somewhat taken aback when I had to contact Alpha about something that didn't work and was then treated like they expected me to be a high level web / javascript programmer and that I should be able to figure it out. That said, I have been very impressed with the quick and often very helpful responses from the Alpha staff, and, again there is no way I would have come this far without the Alpha product, OR several months (or years) learning to develop all on my own.