v12 Release Notes

[mronck]

Re: v12 Release Notes

It sort of depends on what is IN the subscription.... "the right to use the software" or "the right to receive upgrades".

Let's take this example for a moment.
You purchase a subscription. You use it 2 months and end the subscription. You paid 2 times the monthly fee. Let's assume that was $318 (2x$159) Now what?
You consider it reasonable that you may use "the tools" as long as you like and technically can?

Or does that work only if you paid a one year subscription at once at $ 1.699? If yes, where is the reason in that, since that also was only the price for 1 year?

Personally, I would say you purchase the right to use the software. Purchase 2 months, and that right ends after 2 months. Purchase a year, and that right ends after 1 year.
This would automatically include, that when the subscription is not renewed, the right to use the product is waived. The customer chose not to.
If I don't pay my newspaper contribution anymore, I won't receive any more newspaper EVEN if it is my "toolbox" because I do something with it that provides my income (f.e. check the stock market).

Personally, I can not see ANY reason why you should be able to keep using software you no longer pay for.

If 1 year subscription price covers the right to use the software for 1 year, then that is that. If it covers the periodical payment of the license price in 12 terms, then it is a completely different story. But then the subscription fee should have been: "total value" / 12. And that is not the case.

So as well as I do understand Keith and Peter why you would want to keep using the software even after not renewing any subscription, I can't see the fairness behind that.

But I may see it wrong.

[SNusa]

Re: v12 Release Notes

So Marcel: You're willing to pay Microsoft every month just to boot your PC? ~ Think about it!
(Assuming I am correctly interpreting your post.)

~That's not a depiction of a company providing a service. It's an example of a company "holding you hostage."

(I can't envision this sales model in a development scenario, particularly when code gets old, and is maintained by older versions of the software, as has frequently been the case with Alpha5 products.) ~ "Build it with version X, and maintain it with [unsupported] version X to avoid potential issues......"

PS: Those old newspapers are yours to keep and read ("and do with as you please") as long as you like. (Providing YOU don't discard them.) ~ I can't see any reason to pay for software I can't continue to use. (Nor will I, and I can assure you I'm not in the minority here. ~ Not with all the competitive options out there today.)

Case in point: Even Windows 3.11 will continue to "function" 20 years later, 15+ years after it's "support" ended..... You just don't get updates.

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: v12 Release Notes

So as well as I do understand Keith and Peter why you would want to keep using the software even after not renewing any subscription, I can't see the fairness behind that.

But I may see it wrong.

Marcel,

That's exactly what we all have been doing w. Alpha - me for 20-years - AND with every other software I own. A perpetual right to use/develop/etc.

[SNusa]

Re: v12 Release Notes

Marcel,

That's exactly what we all have been doing w. Alpha - me for 20-years - AND with every other software I own. A perpetual right to use/develop/etc.

Interestingly enough, that's one reason I am so reluctant to subscribe to cloud services. As a matter of fact, it's also one reason Apple (the late Steve Jobs) was so adamant about NOT providing an unlimited (consume all you want) music subscription service that expired when you stopped paying for it. ~ Absolutely no residual value. (At the time, I disagreed. But looking at what I spent over the years with Rhapsody (post "subscription") as compared with my friends/girlfriends non-expiring "music portfolio" I now agree wholeheartedly.... I have nothing to show for the $$, she does......

~Apple's success in the entertainment industry speaks for itself.

[MaxDacosta]

Re: v12 Release Notes

I am reading this thread and scratching my head at some of the comments about Alpha moving to subscription for version 12

Let me give you some background.

I have worked as a developer and an IT manager in both small and very large companies. Currently I work for a Fortune 500 company.
I started using Alpha Five about a year ago.

My experience has been overwhelmingly positive based on Alpha Five's productivity and power.

I have worked with both the desktop and web side of the product.

The way I look at development tools is very simple. The following should be the way a tool should be evaluated

What does it cost and what are the cost savings that come from using the tool?

This is a time honored standard way for making rational business decisions - "what is the investment cost and what is the payback"

lets start out with the analysis on the desktop

My experience is that Alpha Five saves about 3 times the time vs tools like VB, Access, Visual Foxpro.
My fully loaded cost to the company that I work for is $120 K per year which translates to $60 per hour for a 2000 hour year.

Lets say I have to build a sophisticated app that might take a year (2000 hours in one of the alternative desktop tools)
Then it is costing the company $120 K

With Alpha, I can get the app done faster (ie in 4 months vs 12 months) so it costs the company $40000 ie a $80000 savings by using Alpha
Conculsion: the cost of the Alpha license and runtime is peanuts compared to the savings.

On the web / browser front - the benefits are even more dramatic.

I have worked in (or managed people using) PHP, Ruby, Python, Java, Visual Studio.net
Alpha offers productivity advantages in the 5 to 10 time range so the savings on a 2000 hour project built in say PHP or Ruby (using a 5 times productivity gain in Alpha Five) amount to 1600 hours by using Alpha Five v11 which translates into $96000 at $60 dollars an hours.

Not to mention the competitive of productivity win of getting app built in much less time

So in this scenario the case for Alpha Five is even stronger

Also, I have been working with the v12 beta - fantastic stuff and tremendous productivity advantages

....So I am scratching my head wondering what all the fuss is about the subscription.

This is the way software is going and at the pricing that Alpha has been talking about, all I can say this is incredible value for money

[SNusa]

Re: v12 Release Notes

@ Max Dacosta:

Here's one of the "head scratchers": The development tools in "your bag of tricks" probably still work today, even if you're no longer using the most recent versions. Right? ~ Another one is regarding perceived "subscription value." (Relative to what was indicated, versus what was delivered in previous "cycles.")

A third (and possibly THE most important) "head scratcher" is: We're not talking about an industry standard tool here. Not in the least, not yet anyways..... Sure, they're integrated with them, and consequently have become extremely/overly dependent upon them IMHO. But they are not the standard. There is no "critical mass here." Unlike the tools you mentioned, much/most of the world has never heard of Alphasoftware. Shrinking the user base by forcing a subscription will likely only result in one thing: FEWER USERS!!!!! ~ Ultimately, unless Alpha makes "all the right moves", there never will be a "critical mass" either. (In which case, we all "pay the price." ~ Nobody wants that.)

PS: "Ignorance is Bliss... Or is it?"

[kkfin]

Re: v12 Release Notes

I am reading this thread and scratching my head at some of the comments about Alpha moving to subscription for version 12

Let me give you some background.

I have worked as a developer and an IT manager in both small and very large companies. Currently I work for a Fortune 500 company.
I started using Alpha Five about a year ago.

My experience has been overwhelmingly positive based on Alpha Five's productivity and power.

I have worked with both the desktop and web side of the product.

The way I look at development tools is very simple. The following should be the way a tool should be evaluated

What does it cost and what are the cost savings that come from using the tool?

This is a time honored standard way for making rational business decisions - "what is the investment cost and what is the payback"

lets start out with the analysis on the desktop

My experience is that Alpha Five saves about 3 times the time vs tools like VB, Access, Visual Foxpro.
My fully loaded cost to the company that I work for is $120 K per year which translates to $60 per hour for a 2000 hour year.

Lets say I have to build a sophisticated app that might take a year (2000 hours in one of the alternative desktop tools)
Then it is costing the company $120 K

With Alpha, I can get the app done faster (ie in 4 months vs 12 months) so it costs the company $40000 ie a $80000 savings by using Alpha
Conculsion: the cost of the Alpha license and runtime is peanuts compared to the savings.

On the web / browser front - the benefits are even more dramatic.

I have worked in (or managed people using) PHP, Ruby, Python, Java, Visual Studio.net
Alpha offers productivity advantages in the 5 to 10 time range so the savings on a 2000 hour project built in say PHP or Ruby (using a 5 times productivity gain in Alpha Five) amount to 1600 hours by using Alpha Five v11 which translates into $96000 at $60 dollars an hours.

Not to mention the competitive of productivity win of getting app built in much less time

So in this scenario the case for Alpha Five is even stronger

Also, I have been working with the v12 beta - fantastic stuff and tremendous productivity advantages

....So I am scratching my head wondering what all the fuss is about the subscription.

This is the way software is going and at the pricing that Alpha has been talking about, all I can say this is incredible value for money

Your first post and this kind of text? Normally this kind of commercial presentation gets deleted from normal message boards.

[mronck]

Re: v12 Release Notes

So Marcel: You're willing to pay Microsoft every month just to boot your PC? ~ Think about it!
(Assuming I am correctly interpreting your post.)

So if you hire a car for the weekend, you want to use it until it falls apart? You won't succeed very long with that....
If you "hire" something, the fact that the period of use ends when your payments end is all in the game.
If you don't want that, you should not "hire" but purchase, if that option exists.

"Subscription" in my opinion is like the underground: to step in where you are, pay the fair to point "x", and you step off at point "x".
You can't keep in the underground until you are at "z" or risk a fine that is.

[jkwrpc]

Re: v12 Release Notes

Richard

Thanks for information, very much appreciated.

[mronck]

Re: v12 Release Notes

Marcel,

That's exactly what we all have been doing w. Alpha - me for 20-years - AND with every other software I own. A perpetual right to use/develop/etc.

Understood Peter. But that was under a "purchase"-license system.
"Subscription" is quite another system. Other system, other license, other rules.

What is your "right" is determined in the license agreement and product description when you purchased it. Not only the "what" but also the "when" and period of use.

If Alpha Software allows the use of their product until even AFTER the period of subscription agreement stops, then that seems something we in Holland call "coulance" I believe you call it "fair dealings" or "goodwill". Which is something the company is not obliged to do, but does it anyway to accomodate its customers. Of course, there are limits to what is acceptable as "coulance" for those companies. That may vary. Point is: you don't have the right, but may be granted it.

[kkfin]

Re: v12 Release Notes

If Alpha Software allows the use of their product until even AFTER the period of subscription agreement stops, then that seems something we in Holland call "coulance" I believe you call it "fair dealings" or "goodwill".

Amen

[mronck]

Re: v12 Release Notes

Your first post and this kind of text? Normally this kind of commercial presentation gets deleted from normal message boards.

That is quite inappropriate to say. DaCosta makes a fair statement and backs it up with calculations. There is no reason to belitle his post as "commercial presentation" just because he has an opposite opinion.

[SNusa]

Re: v12 Release Notes

I believe that many present Alpha users are ultimately worried about the continued viability of investing time & developing resources within the Alpha product line-up, IF it moves to a "subscription only model." ~ A subscription model that precludes it's use (based on price) by a majority of it's present user base. It's a confidence thing. And this "confidence thing" is what already keeps many "mainstream" developers (and their clients) from adopting Alpha based solutions. ~RISK

It's ironic how so many other products (at present) are moving towards a "free to develop with, pay only when you commercialize" sales model. In the tech industry, nearly all of the present "big players" either "gave it away" or continue to "give some of it away." ~ That's how they became a "number one player."

~Google, Microsoft, Oracle w/ MySQL are a few of the "biggies" that come to mind. Apple is no exception really either..... The reason they succeeded is they were focused on selling entertainment, not work. Ultimately, they were backed by the entertainment industry who refuses to give free content away. (Which is also incidentally a primary reason most of us are using Microsoft to "develop on", instead of Apple.) ~ Apple (until fairly recently) was "all about entertainment." NOT BUSINESS/WORK...

[kkfin]

Re: v12 Release Notes

That is quite inappropriate to say.

No it is not. It was fact.

[mronck]

Re: v12 Release Notes

No it is not. It was fact.

You were unnecessarily rude. There is nothing "factual" about calling someone's post "a commercial presentation" when it clearly is not. I am sorry that you don't understand that. Some posts ago you yourself were talking about "respect". You have a strange way of showing this in practice. Seems that it shows only when it suits you. DaCosta has a different opinion. Respect THAT.
There is no professionalism in being discourteous. This forum is a place where discussion is allowed, and we all may have different opinions. I would rather say a hearty Welcome to DaCosta as to start belittling his first post just because he differs in opinion with you. That is very weak behavior. Even on the internet where anonymity is the standard, there is value in politeness.