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Thread: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

  1. #1
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    Default Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Hi,
    Anyone evaluated Windev 20 vs alpha V12 ?
    It looks like windev 20 got amazing components that I never seen on any software tool.
    windev.com

    Any thought?
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Before considering windev, be up to scratch with the French language. Support/forums mainly in French, there is a forum run by users in the US, very nice one too but limited in number of users there. You mentioned windev, assume you only considering desktop builds since for web, that's a different license. Also english version released a couple of months after official French release (last time I checked). Otherwise an overall brilliant dev environment from the limited evaluation done.

    EDIT: Remember too to warn anyone coming an eye shot of your screen that the ladies on the screen posing at every turn of the dev environment are there for motivation!
    Last edited by kotinkarwak; 06-17-2015 at 09:47 AM.
    Regards,

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Kotin,
    It looks like their domain name and the desktop version has similar names (windev.com | WINDEV) , but I am looking after all products WINDEV, WEBDEV and WINDEV Mobile. It costs around $2k + $300 for unlimited server, but you can use a free server, if you develop a php application. It looks like, it come with 10 developer licenses too. I don't worry about the ladies picture, the IDE doesn't have that much ladies picture :).
    Regarding the Support/forums, don't you think Google Chrome translator may be a solution for that ?
    It is a good news that there is a US users forum.
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Nuances of google translation, video tuts only in French, error messages popping up in French while promised this has been taken care of (version 17). If you need to get your feet wet in web, sorry, you will have to buy license, the Express is only available for desktop and mobile: a new one I think but WebDev none so far.
    Price wise, think compares well with the major players in the enterprise world. Continue evaluating, might revisit it as well now the on ver 20.
    Regards,

    Kotin Karwak
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    They certainly know how to make brochures...
    Win 10 64 Development, Win 7 64 WAS 11-1, 2, Win 10 64 AA-1,2, MySql, dbForge Studio The Best MySQL GUI Tool IMHO. http://www.devart.com/dbforge/mysql/studio/

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by frankbicknell View Post
    They certainly know how to make brochures...
    Was that a brochure or the entire WinDev manual?? ....lol
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    They have toned down the sexy girls a bit since a year or two ago. Personally, I find the brochures too distracting and difficult to read. But their actual manuals are pretty good which I think you might be able to find there somewhere. I had an extensive review by a WinDev guy. The different WinDev platforms don't talk to each other and they aren't all that cheap going from version to version.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Peter,
    I been reading and watching videos today and Windev platforms do talk to each other.
    Check Windev's documentations here http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/documentations.html

    So far it looks very promising. I don't see a price different compared with alpha. But i couldn't find any documentation how windev works with phonegap.
    Last edited by Ferenju; 06-18-2015 at 01:28 AM.
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    Volunteer Moderator Peter.Greulich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    That's interesting and inevitable. Two years ago they were disparate products. It only makes sense that they integrated them. Of course, how well they work together is an open question I suppose. But good for them.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    At first using code generators seems to be nice solution. But very soon you just struggle with them.

    Why to make it so difficult.
    In html page you basically have just labels, text boxes, input boxes, selects and textarea.
    Then you add some css and js.

    I would just learn basic skills in html and js and some css.
    Then start using angularjs + some frontend frameworks like kendoui (with Alpha of course).

    Life is much easier and you never have to struggle lack of documentations.

    Check this example from angularjs.org.
    How easy to add or take away something.
    This is how coding should be done!


    Code:
    <!DOCTYPE html>
    <html>
    <head>
    <script src="http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/angularjs/1.3.14/angular.min.js"></script>
    </head>
    <body>
    
    <div ng-app ng-init="qty=1;cost=2">
      <b>Invoice:</b>
      <div>
        Quantity: <input type="number" min="0" ng-model="qty">
      </div>
      <div>
        Costs: <input type="number" min="0" ng-model="cost">
      </div>
      <div>
        <b>Total:</b> {{qty * cost | currency}}
      </div>
    </div>
    </body>
    </html>
    Get interested? This is the original video that turned my development philosophy.
    Last edited by kkfin; 06-18-2015 at 03:33 AM. Reason: link

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    kkfin,
    I support easy and in industry where some of these companies charge an arm and a leg for "professional services" in cases where you need a tiny tweak of even the generated HTML. Back to AA, anyone to show us how to add whistles and bells to pages for some of the markets that thrive on swishy front ends would be appreciated. The default templates in AA are not ugly ducklings but show that to a generation .com person and they will say "YAWN".
    Anyone out there please show us how to use bought templates for the front end pages and how the AA work fits into it.
    Regards,

    Kotin Karwak
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Ken,
    Thanks for simple straight forward review. Appreciate if you can provide some examples of using Kendoui with AA.

  13. #13
    "Certified" Alphaholic kkfin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Here is what you need to get started :)

    <%a5
    ? {"message": "hello world"}
    %>

    How to handle this json you can learn from many books of angular and kendoui or reading their online manuals.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferenju View Post
    It looks like windev 20 got amazing components that I never seen on any software tool.
    What would those amazing components be ?
    Frank

    Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Frank,
    These are some of my pick's from documentation that are found here http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/documentations.html .
    You will find things that alpha doesn't give you out of the box, or extra charge, check-it-out!

    • Code sharing /desktop/web / mobile
    • HFSQL database engine for /desktop /web / mobile
    • HFSQL control center
    • HFSQL database management tool /analysis
    • Native accesses to many databases
    • Offline applications building
    • Pvt” cube control
    • Sunburst chart
    • Video conference” control – automatic
    • Spreadsheet control
    • SAAS
    • IIS
    • LDAP
    • Develop Linux applications
    • Project document generator
    • Project Code comparison
    • PHP development / generator
    • Table control ZOOM
    • Automatic Application generator
    • EXE generator, 32-bit and 64-bit.
    • Installations without UAC
    • Touch ID technology
    • Android Wear
    • Apple Watch
    • Google Glass
    • Dashboard control
    • Project monitoring center
    • Source code management
    • Multiple developers’ management
    • Multi-lingual application development
    • more....
    Last edited by Ferenju; 06-19-2015 at 12:12 AM.
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    • Code sharing /desktop/web / mobile
    Available in Alpha Anywhere

    • HFSQL database engine for /desktop /web / mobile
    • HFSQL control center
    • HFSQL database management tool /analysis
    • Native accesses to many databases
    HFSQL is a proprietary system (would you really want that?) , Alpha integrates with industry standard database systems

    • Offline applications building
    Available in Alpha Anywhere

    • SAAS
    • IIS
    Available in Alpha Anywhere (IIS to be released real soon now

    • Multi-lingual application development
    Available in Alpha Anywhere

    • Apple Watch
    Available "in" Alpha Anywhere see http://www.alphasoftware.com/blog/fi...ha-watchbench/

    There's more stuff you are referring to that is also available in Alpha Anywhere, I just picked a few.

    Linux applications for sure is not but the whole world is going mobile & web; if you find yourself in some niche then maybe yes that could be interesting

    They have a very loyal customer base in europe but as pointed out earlier by Kotin; bonne chance si vous ne parlez pas français. Je vous conseille de d'abord evaluer Alpha Anywhere * fond; vous allez être surpris.

    Cordialement,
    Frank
    Frank

    Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand

  17. #17
    "Certified" Alphaholic kkfin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    One thing that has had surprisingly little attention is Alpha Anywheres ability to run server side javascript.
    This is just amazing feature. This feature makes also possible to run javascript directly in web page template.

    Little Example template

    Code:
    <!doctype html>
    <html lang="en">
     <head>
      <meta charset="UTF-8">
      <title>Little Example</title>
      <%= new Date() %>
     </head>
     <body>
     <h1>My Little Example Template</h1>
     </body>
    </html>

    In bold above is pure javascript function inside <% %> tags that renderes date when page is loaded.( Note that no library is loaded ).

    This is possible because Alpha Anywhere has integrated Nodejs. What is interesting is that above page is rendered in Nodejs server not in Alpha Anywhere server so if you are running AA server in port 80 you can for example make above page available at port 3000 ( or any other port).

    This opens endless possibility's to developers point of view.

    Here is example to get started.

    1. Find in Alphas install directory node_services directory and put this file expressown.js to it.

    Code:
    exports.handler = function(packet,response,sendResponse) {
    
    	var express = require('express');
    	var path = require('path');
    	var app = express();
    	app.set('view engine', 'ejs');
    	app.set('views', path.join(__dirname, 'views'));
    	// Start the app
    
    	app.get('/', function(req, res) {
    	res.render('index');
    	});
    
    	app.listen(3000, function() {
    	console.log('Express app started on port 3000');
    	});
    
    	
    		response.result = 'Server is running on port 3000'
    		sendResponse(response);
    };
    2. Make new folder in node_services folder and name it as views and put in it the little example template and name it index.ejs

    3. Make normally in your Developer dateejs.a5w page and put inside:

    Code:
    <%a5 
    dim n as Helper::V8
    dim p as p
    p._id = api_uuidcreate()
    p._command = "expressown"
    dim jsoncmd as c
    jsoncmd = json_generate(p)
    ? n.NodeRequest(jsoncmd)
    ? p._command
    %>
    4. Publish dateejs.a5w and open it in browser and then open new tab and go to http://localhost:3000 and you see the little example template rendered. Note this is Nodejs server not Alpha server running.

    This is just little example. Developers heaven is in javascript and it is available in Alpha Anywhere.

    Note: expressown.js is running in server and user will never see the code in client side so you can protect your own code.
    Last edited by kkfin; 06-19-2015 at 06:44 AM. Reason: Note

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferenju View Post
    Frank,
    These are some of my pick's from documentation that are found here http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/documentations.html .
    You will find things that alpha doesn't give you out of the box, or extra charge, check-it-out!

    • Code sharing /desktop/web / mobile
    • HFSQL database engine for /desktop /web / mobile
    • HFSQL control center
    • HFSQL database management tool /analysis
    • Native accesses to many databases
    • Offline applications building
    • Pvt” cube control
    • Sunburst chart
    • Video conference” control – automatic
    • Spreadsheet control
    • SAAS
    • IIS
    • LDAP
    • Develop Linux applications
    • Project document generator
    • Project Code comparison
    • PHP development / generator
    • Table control ZOOM
    • Automatic Application generator
    • EXE generator, 32-bit and 64-bit.
    • Installations without UAC
    • Touch ID technology
    • Android Wear
    • Apple Watch
    • Google Glass
    • Dashboard control
    • Project monitoring center
    • Source code management
    • Multiple developers’ management
    • Multi-lingual application development
    • more....
    Ferenju,

    Have you actually developed with any of these components/features?

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Peter,
    I never used Windev, webdev or windev -mobile. I develop applications using multiple tools and programing languages to build what i am looking for. I have a list of developer tools to watch for and Windev is one of them.
    {

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Here is my problem with Alpha.

    The best information I can get is that Alpha web side slows down at 10 concurrent users and grinds to a halt at 30. You may get more users if you use some supper high end server that cost an arm and a leg each month.

    I have never been able to get a straight answer on this, not even from Alpha but if you need to pop for a WAS every 10 users plus additional server cost then I will never see how Alpha can be a viable solution.

    For me to move on using Alpha for anything but desktop it would need to handle at least 200 concurrent users per WAS on a standard run of the mill server.

    As for Windev, I tried it a year or so back and hated it. Never could get anything to work right. Even following a tutorial exactly I would get errors in french that made no sense. I also did not like the developers console. As for the databases it uses, as far as I can remember it can use them all just as Alpha does but they also include the HFSQL Engine which I believe makes it easier to deploy desktop applications without requiring the end user to install a SQL server or the like.

  21. #21
    "Certified" Alphaholic kkfin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    There are few things that in my opinion are bottlenecks in Alphas performance.

    I think the major problem is the design pattern in Alpha and the server.

    I am personally not using any components in my development. Put I have tested them. I did a most simple UX-component two columns of data five static records loaded from json and a button that echoes selected row in two text box. The result in browser is 1209 lines of html and inline javascript(so no catching) + external js library. I have read from this forum that it is normally to have hundred components in ready application.
    I did same functionality with Angularjs and it was less than 50 lines of code + external js.

    Also the built in security makes everything again slower so I do not use it anymore. The problem is that also the directory security goes in hand with built in security so this makes all much more difficult.

    Also the current design pattern loves to redirect. This is not good design patter from the point of view server performance.

    One problem is also ugly urls but again for example with angularjs you can use hashbang urls with Alpha. This makes you also forget redirecting(from server) totally which has big influence to performance. But you can not use hashbang urls if you use built in security.


    Selwyn in last roadmap did bring up the possibility to run server side javascript in Alpha Anywhere. But the reaction from developers was just the concern of xbasic. Can we still use it! Now they are happy that they can use it. Same time they are not satisfied to the performance?

    As I explained in post #17 you can already in Alpha run separate server (nodejs + expressjs) and serve data from it to the end user and it has 1000 times better performance.
    So why we still want to use xbasic?

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    As I explained in post #17 you can already in Alpha run separate server (nodejs + expressjs) and serve data from it to the end user and it has 1000 times better performance.
    So why we still want to use xbasic?
    - ken

    you are still in alpha. to get the free nodeJs and express why anyone need to spend all the money in version 12 alpha, you can serve (broadcast) the data via JSON and get the data in angularJS with $http calls and make it look nice with css and deploy anywhere literally anywhere not in specialized hosting service,
    For me to move on using Alpha for anything but desktop it would need to handle at least 200 concurrent users per WAS on a standard run of the mill server.
    -preston
    this calls will not load up the server and i am sure you can have as many concurrent users you want and not even bother with version 12 for mobile presence and will run on run of the mill server in any hosting company and you can run the alpha server in your den or garage.

    i am rewriting my jQuery codes in angularJS, looks like lots of fun.
    thanks for reading

    gandhi

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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by GGandhi View Post
    -
    -preston
    this calls will not load up the server and i am sure you can have as many concurrent users you want and not even bother with version 12 for mobile presence and will run on run of the mill server in any hosting company and you can run the alpha server in your den or garage.

    i am rewriting my jQuery codes in angularJS, looks like lots of fun.
    So are you saying to not use version 12 at all or use it for web except for mobile devices?

    Right now I am learning InDe as their full featured developer is free to use for development. I can then buy it when I am ready to deploy. Plus side is there is no WAS and your apps can run on a Windows server or Linux server.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    you can do with angularJS or jQuery to present the data and alpha to broadcast the data via JSON and you do not need version 12 for mobile presence. i have jQuery working well for me with version 11. i am playing with angularJS and it seems lot useful and you don't need WAS to serve the pages just the data for $http calls in JSON format. (in jQuery i use JSONP, soon i will be using JSONP for angular once i iron out some growing pains) and you can host your jQuery or angularJS in any run of the mill host service provider.
    thanks for reading

    gandhi

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  25. #25
    Volunteer Moderator Peter.Greulich's Avatar
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Ferenju, my point is that a list of great features is one thing. How it all works in development and the real world is another. What Preston says about WinDev echos what others have told me. Looks good from the outside, not so much from the inside.

    Preston, as you know, InDe is $$$ these days. I worked with it for a month. Went through the tutorial, began to learn how to apply (code) security. InDe is an interesting product, but not at all intuitive. I felt the learning curve was too steep given all the Alpha work I have to support.

    Ken, I'm really curious how, or even why, you use Alpha? You don't use components, you don't use security, you don't use xbasic. So what part of Alpha do you use?

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Talk of lacklustre performance is very worrying indeed for the like of me who doesn't know how to pipe up an infrastructure with other solution offerings. Is my worry misplaced? My usage scenario will be up to 500 users at a time, not doing a lot of heavy lifting work like reports but just accessing data they filtered to see. Should I still invest more time in AA in the building of the app? Solutions offering explicit concurrent user counts are way expensive, thought the 'unlimited' nature of AA license was more like the sol, but if there is this virtual limitation regardless, then I need to be aware of as early as possible.

    For those who are using other solutions alongside AA, please share the how's so we can also make some headway in understanding it.
    Regards,

    Kotin Karwak
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  27. #27
    Member preston2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    @ Gandhi So why use Alpha at all?

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    @ Gandhi So why use Alpha at all?
    it is up to you, and I don't know how to answer that question.
    if you have web with alpha or desktop with alpha and want to have mobile then just use alpha to broadcast the data and jQuery or angularJs to use it in mobile area.
    not much to learn as in inde developer. and not much to pay as in version 12 of alpha.

    also you need something to serve up the data and process the data like php or asp or alpha right?
    Last edited by GGandhi; 06-21-2015 at 01:08 PM.
    thanks for reading

    gandhi

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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by kotinkarwak View Post
    Talk of lacklustre performance is very worrying indeed for the like of me who doesn't know how to pipe up an infrastructure with other solution offerings. Is my worry misplaced? My usage scenario will be up to 500 users at a time, not doing a lot of heavy lifting work like reports but just accessing data they filtered to see. Should I still invest more time in AA in the building of the app? Solutions offering explicit concurrent user counts are way expensive, thought the 'unlimited' nature of AA license was more like the sol, but if there is this virtual limitation regardless, then I need to be aware of as early as possible.

    For those who are using other solutions alongside AA, please share the how's so we can also make some headway in understanding it.
    Each webapp with 500 concurrent you need a BIG FAST machine no matter what script language your using.
    There is the option to run multiple instance or wait for the IIS plugin

  30. #30
    Former Alpha Employee JerryBrightbill's Avatar
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by kkfin View Post
    Also the built in security makes everything again slower so I do not use it anymore. The problem is that also the directory security goes in hand with built in security so this makes all much more difficult.
    If you can provide an example of the security causing a slowdown, we would certainly like to see it. While every request goes through the security check, extensive testing has shown the security check takes between 7 and 11 milliseconds, while some could actually be less.

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